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Old 02-08-2013, 02:26 PM   #196
madballster
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Keep a man within the context of his era wlad has 4 times fought a man outside his best available opposition.

It's ridiculous.
Wlad can only fight those guys that either are

1. his mandatory challenger
2. agree to his terms for a voluntary defense

Let's look at the challengers of the last couple years:

2008: Ibragimov (unification, ranked higher than mandatory)
2008: Thompson
2008: Rahman (substitute for Povetkin duck #1)
2009: 1 voluntary defense (against Chagaev)
2010: Chambers
2010: Sam Peter (substitute for Povetkin duck #1)
2011: Haye (unification, ranked higher than mandatory)
2012: Thompson + 2 voluntary defenses (Mormeck and Wach)

So in 5 years Wlad had a total of three voluntary defenses, against Chagaev who came in for Haye who canceled the fight, Mormeck and Wach. On the other hand 7 opponents were mandated by the sanctioning bodies and Wlad has no choice to fight them unless he wanted to get stripped.

A 3 in 10 ratio of handpicked bums vs. highest rating mandatory challengers is not bad by any standards.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:30 PM   #197
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

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Originally Posted by BOGART View Post
Not being able to say where they were rated off the top of my head doesn't mean I haven't done my research. Thats a juvenile way of thinking.

Not all top 10 fighters are created equal and the guys Louis fought in that one 4 fight stretch were probably worse than Wlad's regardless of where they were rated.

Wlad could never get away with fighting guys like Burman and McCoy and I'd take someone like Wach or Thompson over them all day regardless of where they were/are rated.
That's the point the equivalent of that stretch today is wlad fighting helenius, fury, pulev and povetkin. 2 fringe guys 2 top five guys.

That's also the exact names people have been begging wlad to fight instead of wach and pianeta.

So yes, for you to list those names as a comparison indicates a huge lack of research.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:33 PM   #198
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

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Originally Posted by madballster View Post
Patterson, Louis, Holmes.

Not defending Wlad's recent run of opponents, it's crap. I just disagree with popular hyperboles such as "worst string of defeses ever" or "weakest era ever" etc.
I disagree with the shit about it being a weak era, so what before this era there was a "weakest era ever" at some point and noone gave a shit.

However a champ should fight those most deserving within that era and wlad is not doing atm.

List a 4 man run that rivals this one, I'm intrigued to see if it can be done.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:35 PM   #199
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
You don't have to be blindfully faithful to your hero mate. I consider Wlad one of the greatest in history, doesn't mean I can't see this run for what it is - the shittest run in hw championship history.

Which champ (proper champ not paper champ) can rival it?
Haha I'm not being blindingly faithful, I criticize Wlad when it's applicable. Should he have stepped it up and got Haye (and others) outta there? Hell yeah! Has he stunk out the joint on occasion? Hell yeah! Does he play it too safe sometimes? Hell yeah!

But this is NOT the shittiest run in HW championship history, not at all. There have been several weak eras in the past, there will be more in the future. It's cyclical. Golden eras come around every few decades, in between that are weak, average and solid eras. One could argue that the era just after Lewis retired was average, then we've recently entered a weak era the past few years. I feel that 2014-2016 will be a solid era with some good contenders and matchups. After time when Wlad retires, who knows?
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:37 PM   #200
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

Quote:
Originally Posted by madballster View Post
Wlad can only fight those guys that either are

1. his mandatory challenger
2. agree to his terms for a voluntary defense

Let's look at the challengers of the last couple years:

2008: Ibragimov (unification, ranked higher than mandatory)
2008: Thompson
2008: Rahman (substitute for Povetkin duck #1)
2009: 1 voluntary defense (against Chagaev)
2010: Chambers
2010: Sam Peter (substitute for Povetkin duck #1)
2011: Haye (unification, ranked higher than mandatory)
2012: Thompson + 2 voluntary defenses (Mormeck and Wach)

So in 5 years Wlad had a total of three voluntary defenses, against Chagaev who came in for Haye who canceled the fight, Mormeck and Wach. On the other hand 7 opponents were mandated by the sanctioning bodies and Wlad has no choice to fight them unless he wanted to get stripped.

A 3 in 10 ratio of handpicked bums vs. highest rating mandatory challengers is not bad by any standards.
Jesus Christ man give it up. I'm some typical campaigning wlad hater. I dont need to see all these facts and figures as they relate not to my point.

My point is simple, since haye wlad has failed as a champ. Even allowing jmm as a big money fight between unification and mandatory, wach followed by pianeta is shit and deserves criticism.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:38 PM   #201
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

Quote:
Originally Posted by madballster View Post
Wlad can only fight those guys that either are

1. his mandatory challenger
2. agree to his terms for a voluntary defense

Let's look at the challengers of the last couple years:

2008: Ibragimov (unification, ranked higher than mandatory)
2008: Thompson
2008: Rahman (substitute for Povetkin duck #1)
2009: 1 voluntary defense (against Chagaev)
2010: Chambers
2010: Sam Peter (substitute for Povetkin duck #1)
2011: Haye (unification, ranked higher than mandatory)
2012: Thompson + 2 voluntary defenses (Mormeck and Wach)

So in 5 years Wlad had a total of three voluntary defenses, against Chagaev who came in for Haye who canceled the fight, Mormeck and Wach. On the other hand 7 opponents were mandated by the sanctioning bodies and Wlad has no choice to fight them unless he wanted to get stripped.

A 3 in 10 ratio of handpicked bums vs. highest rating mandatory challengers is not bad by any standards.
nice work
Wlad has 5 belts. No mands for "ring" of "IBO"... but the mands are constant for WBA.IBF and WBO. Many guys they want to fight know they are close to being a mand thus higher pay. They wont say that to the media... instead they bitch that the "offer was low"... sure it is... its a voluntary NOT a mand......

like FURY.... he mentions "$10 million".... for a voluntary? or he says "i will deal with them on my terms"...Really?..Why? who are you to dictate terms on a voluntary. If you dont like the offer, say NO and move on or fight your way to a mand position. Why should wlad be paying HUGE amounts that are close to a mand for a voluntary? From a business point, it doesnt make sense.

Where is the dislike to the fighters that wont take the cash and chance to win the titles because they want more money? haters bitch that wlad offers to little, what about the fighters that want to much...again we are talking VOLUNTARY

Guys like fury who think they can dictate what the CHAMPION should offer for a voluntary are a joke. yet haters on here hang on Fury's every word...... its ridiculous
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:38 PM   #202
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

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Originally Posted by Montero View Post
Haha I'm not being blindingly faithful, I criticize Wlad when it's applicable. Should he have stepped it up and got Haye (and others) outta there? Hell yeah! Has he stunk out the joint on occasion? Hell yeah! Does he play it too safe sometimes? Hell yeah!

But this is NOT the shittiest run in HW championship history, not at all. There have been several weak eras in the past, there will be more in the future. It's cyclical. Golden eras come around every few decades, in between that are weak, average and solid eras. One could argue that the era post Lewis was average, then we've recently entered a weak era - I feel that 2014-2016 will be a solid era with some good contenders matchups.
Then show me a run to rival this one.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:41 PM   #203
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

Yes, Chef has inside insight that is business-savy and reasonable by anyone's viewpoint.

I think alot of boxing fans don't realize a fighter's career is really a business underneath the sport; a means to make the most money he can, while he is in the sport.

Much like a rock band is...............it all boils down to the fact that these guys are making money at their craft, and making the most of their best years by making good business decisions when it comes to who they fight, and when, and how much they offer the other fighter.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:47 PM   #204
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

I can't believe this thread has gotten 14 pages. Wlad is fighting another shit fight. For the posters here in America, it won't even be televised.

We can bitch about politics and the lack of a unified champion all day, but until Vitali retires this is the (horrible) state of the heavy weight division.

Let's just enjoy the far better fights in the lower weight divisions and wait about two years.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:32 PM   #205
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEF View Post
like FURY.... he mentions "$10 million".... for a voluntary? or he says "i will deal with them on my terms"...Really?..Why? who are you to dictate terms on a voluntary. If you dont like the offer, say NO and move on or fight your way to a mand position. Why should wlad be paying HUGE amounts that are close to a mand for a voluntary? From a business point, it doesnt make sense.
Exactly.

It's like I noted earlier, guys like Mayweather are making over $40M for a fight and paying the voluntary opponent about $2.5M. By the time you factor in risiduals, the opponent is getting around 5% of the purse. K2 is paying out a much higher percentage than that. If guys wanna fight bums for chump change instead of fighting the champ for a few million, that's on them.

Fury wants $10M - would a fight between him and Wlad generate anywhere near $20M at this point? I doubt it, but let's say that it would - does Fury deserve a 50/50 split with the champion on a voluntary defense? Hell no! Fury knows that, which is why he can talk shit on Twitter but any reasonable person can see he doesn't really want the fight.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:35 PM   #206
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

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Originally Posted by jeffjoiner View Post
I can't believe this thread has gotten 14 pages. Wlad is fighting another shit fight. For the posters here in America, it won't even be televised.

We can bitch about politics and the lack of a unified champion all day, but until Vitali retires this is the (horrible) state of the heavy weight division.

Let's just enjoy the far better fights in the lower weight divisions and wait about two years.
Agreed.

For anyone interested, this fight will probably be televised on EPIX. For those who aren't interested, there are plenty of much better fights in the lower weights coming up.

I never said Klitschko-Pianeta is an amazing fight, it's not. I just merely reported that this is likely the champ's next defense and that while it's a shit matchup, there are some silver linings. Once Vitali retires and these prospects grow into contenders, this division is going to heat up quickly.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:50 PM   #207
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

Quote:
Originally Posted by madballster View Post
Wlad can only fight those guys that either are

1. his mandatory challenger
2. agree to his terms for a voluntary defense

Let's look at the challengers of the last couple years:

2008: Ibragimov (unification, ranked higher than mandatory)
2008: Thompson
2008: Rahman (substitute for Povetkin duck #1)
2009: 1 voluntary defense (against Chagaev)
2010: Chambers
2010: Sam Peter (substitute for Povetkin duck #1)
2011: Haye (unification, ranked higher than mandatory)
2012: Thompson + 2 voluntary defenses (Mormeck and Wach)

So in 5 years Wlad had a total of three voluntary defenses, against Chagaev who came in for Haye who canceled the fight, Mormeck and Wach. On the other hand 7 opponents were mandated by the sanctioning bodies and Wlad has no choice to fight them unless he wanted to get stripped.

A 3 in 10 ratio of handpicked bums vs. highest rating mandatory challengers is not bad by any standards.
Maybe part of the problem is the orgs do not have more power to mandate opponents. Chambers and Thompson were WBO mandatories if I'm not mistaken. But for some reason Haye counted as a WBO mandatory, so Wlad doesn't have to deal with that any time soon.

On the other hand, sometimes the orgs serve as cover for bad fights, as 3 of the weaker opponents were subsitutes as IBF mandatories. But I don't think any of these 3 weak fights were necessarily bad fights--Rahman was a former champ, Peter deserved a rematch, and Thompson was still a Top 10 guy. Only Rahman was arguably a worse fight then Mormeck/Wach/Pianeta.

There ought to be an org in charge of (or at least regulating) boxing match-ups. There would still be room for negotiation, but some body should provide oversight for the good of the sport.

Last edited by ludwig; 02-08-2013 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:02 PM   #208
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
To be fair, no champion in the divisions history has fought 4 shit names in a row, the best of whom was a man he'd already beaten.
Jack Johnson
Tony Ross
Al Kaufman
Ketchel(Fixed fight vs a Middle)
Jeffries(6yr layoff)
Jim Flynn
Jim Johnson
Frank Moran
Jack Murray

Joe Louis
Johnny Paychek(not ranked top 10)
Arturo Godoy
Al McCoy(3-3 in previous 6, not ranked top 10)
Red Burman(not ranked top 10)
Gus Dorazio(not ranked top 10)
Abe Simon(coming off loss to 15-11 Jim Thompson)
Tony Musto(was 2-4 in previous 6..Not ranked top 10)
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:47 PM   #209
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

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Originally Posted by marciano1952 View Post
Jack Johnson
Tony Ross
Al Kaufman
Ketchel(Fixed fight vs a Middle)
Jeffries(6yr layoff)
Jim Flynn
Jim Johnson
Frank Moran
Jack Murray

Joe Louis
Johnny Paychek(not ranked top 10)
Arturo Godoy
Al McCoy(3-3 in previous 6, not ranked top 10)
Red Burman(not ranked top 10)
Gus Dorazio(not ranked top 10)
Abe Simon(coming off loss to 15-11 Jim Thompson)
Tony Musto(was 2-4 in previous 6..Not ranked top 10)
Jeffries v Johnson was the original fotc. Moran was deserving.

Your definition of not ranked for the list of Louis fights is completely FALSE. Without fail everyone Louis defended against was top ten, I expect better than that.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:53 PM   #210
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Default Re: looks like Klitschko-Pianeta

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Jeffries v Johnson was the original fotc. Moran was deserving.

Your definition of not ranked for the list of Louis fights is completely FALSE. Without fail everyone Louis defended against was top ten, I expect better than that.
I posted where each fighter was Ranked by the RING the year Lewis Fought them.....Its not My Rankings, its the Rankings by the Ring Magazine....

FOTC?...Maybe in Hype....but Jeffries has no business being in a Boxing ring fighting for the title....
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