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Old 02-10-2013, 07:59 AM   #76
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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I'll try to dig out Senya's report.Have yuo any reason to doubt Box rec's figures?
No it just reads like an observation from ringside rather than an exact figure from a weigh-in .and you don't have to dig anything out , this has been an excellent/passionate thread to read
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:49 AM   #77
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"You made a thread about Johnson not keeping his word with the NSC to come back and defend his title for a paltry £1000, a big song and dance during which you twice called him a "scumbag". You are not even sure if Johnson signed the contract yet you go off as though he is the only fighter to renege on a fight and its some unique occurence , instead of which its been going on since boxing began."


Never said he was the only fighter to do something like this but why should that change my personal opinion of him for doing it? As for how sure I am he did it and having any proof, the N.Y. Times indicated they had a copy of his letter SIGNED by him. That seems like pretty good proof to me. But, you want to see the letter and signature to have your handwriting expert perform an analysis. I'm on it, I'll do my best to track it down.

"How else is one to intrepret your opinion of Jack Johnson as other than biased against him?"

Personally, I think you're biased when it comes to Johnson.

"As I said I am not alone in my opinion of your stance in this matter, but never fear ,as soon as he sees this ,Mendoza will be galloping to your side and you will have the company of that revered historian ,and classic scholar to give you moral support."

No matter, I'm comfortable expressing my own opinion regardless of who disagrees with it.

"I've done you a favour on this thread , by keeping it going , I've enabled you to get several plugs in for your book. You should give me a % of the royalties. "

Maybe so. But, as for royalties let me tell you there is no money to be made in writing a boxing book, at least based on my personal experience. I kept fairly good track of my expenses in writing the Langford book and the revenues I brought in. And, I figure I've made about all of $2,000 on the book to-date. And, that is only if you don't take into account the thousands of hours spent researching and writing it. I've told countless folks that in terms of my financial situation I would be much further ahead if I'd spent all that time flipping burgers at McDonalds instead. Writing a boxing book should be viewed as a labor of love. However, maybe I'll actually end up making a bit of money if that Billy Miske movie really does get made based on my book (see other thread).

McVey, I have always enjoyed your posts in the past. This thread has obviously become heated between us and I regret that. But, I really don't appreciate being accused of purposely trying to mislead anyone, that is not my style. I think it's fair for you to accuse me of being biased in your opinion but I felt you went too fair with that accusation.
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:06 PM   #78
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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"You made a thread about Johnson not keeping his word with the NSC to come back and defend his title for a paltry £1000, a big song and dance during which you twice called him a "scumbag". You are not even sure if Johnson signed the contract yet you go off as though he is the only fighter to renege on a fight and its some unique occurence , instead of which its been going on since boxing began."


Never said he was the only fighter to do something like this but why should that change my personal opinion of him for doing it? As for how sure I am he did it and having any proof, the N.Y. Times indicated they had a copy of his letter SIGNED by him. That seems like pretty good proof to me. But, you want to see the letter and signature to have your handwriting expert perform an analysis. I'm on it, I'll do my best to track it down.

"How else is one to intrepret your opinion of Jack Johnson as other than biased against him?"

Personally, I think you're biased when it comes to Johnson.

"As I said I am not alone in my opinion of your stance in this matter, but never fear ,as soon as he sees this ,Mendoza will be galloping to your side and you will have the company of that revered historian ,and classic scholar to give you moral support."

No matter, I'm comfortable expressing my own opinion regardless of who disagrees with it.

"I've done you a favour on this thread , by keeping it going , I've enabled you to get several plugs in for your book. You should give me a % of the royalties. "

Maybe so. But, as for royalties let me tell you there is no money to be made in writing a boxing book, at least based on my personal experience. I kept fairly good track of my expenses in writing the Langford book and the revenues I brought in. And, I figure I've made about all of $2,000 on the book to-date. And, that is only if you don't take into account the thousands of hours spent researching and writing it. I've told countless folks that in terms of my financial situation I would be much further ahead if I'd spent all that time flipping burgers at McDonalds instead. Writing a boxing book should be viewed as a labor of love. However, maybe I'll actually end up making a bit of money if that Billy Miske movie really does get made based on my book (see other thread).

McVey, I have always enjoyed your posts in the past. This thread has obviously become heated between us and I regret that. But, I really don't appreciate being accused of purposely trying to mislead anyone, that is not my style. I think it's fair for you to accuse me of being biased in your opinion but I felt you went too fair with that accusation.

Several of my friends have written books on what we call in the UK ,Field Sports , none have done much better than break even
I was attempting to defuse what you described as a somewhat heated situation.

In the interests of mutual enjoyment, and respect for each others posts , I unreservedly withdraw my remark, and wish you" Bon Chance" with the movie rights on William Miske.
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:08 PM   #79
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

Thanks McVey, I appreciate that. Onward and upwards.
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:27 PM   #80
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

Thank god
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:22 PM   #81
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

"True humility is strength restrained"

Well done gentlemen
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:39 PM   #82
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Thank you thank you ... LOL
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:55 PM   #83
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I took the trouble to request the microfilm of the 1909 New York newspaper 'The World' to see if I could find the photo of the letter that the National Sporting Club claimed Johnson signed himself agreeing to come back and fight and face Langford after his fight with Burns in Australia. And, sure enough there it was in their May 3, 1909 edition. I've got to figure out how to post the scan I took. But, in the meantime here's the article from The World that accompanied the picture of the letter May 3rd:

"Black Champion Proves He Tampers With The Truth.
His Agreement to Box Before the National Sporting Club of London Was Signed with His Own Hand.
He Tried to Shift the Responsibility to Others.
World Produces Photograph of His Signed Letter - Opinion of Secretary of Club.
By William P. McLoughlin

Very few persons who have followed the course of Mistah Jack Johnson since he won the heavyweight championship of hte world by walloping little Tommy Burns need to be told of the absolute indifference of the big negro to either truth or candor. Those, however, who like the man from Missouri, must "be shown" before they will believe and derive the most convincing proof of Johnson's dishonorable character from the letter which I print in this column and the photographic facsimile which accompanied that letter from London.

It will be remembered that the moment Johnson was proclaimed heavyweight champion he began to suffer from what a facetious friend of mine would call "elephantasis of the cranium," but which the erudite Kid Griffo describes as the "swelled cocoa."

Dropped His Friends Overboard.
Johnson as soon as he gained the title, had no further use for the men who had stood by him when he was hustling after a snack of pork and chicken. Sam Fitzpatrick, who went broke and kept on borrowing from his friends to grub stake Johnson in the vague hope of getting it back when he would succeed in working the negro into the championship class, was cast aside. Johnson gave no earthly reason for this act of gross ingratitude. Fitzpatrick the faithful had to beat it back to San Francisco from Australia with all his pockets turned inside out, while the slugger he befriended arrived with bulging pocketbook and a bushel of resin unerative contracts.

More offers were made here. The negro promptly began to sidestep those to which he was already bound so as to hitch up with newer and more liberal ones. RIght and left he disregarded his moral as well as literal obligations. So far did he go in this direction that in order to allay in some measure the popular indignation he began to worse than romance. He liked like the lamented Joe Mulhatton or Tom Ochiltree. He was worse than a gas meter. He blamed this, that or the other person for having signed contracts for him of which he knew nothing whatsoever.

When he threw over his agreement to box Sam Langford before the National Sporting Club in London, he declared that he had never agreed to any such proposition.

The Proof of It Is Here
I am enabled today to present a damming proof of the four-flushing negro's duplicity and bad faith. The photograph (next column) shows Johnson's own letter to the club, signed by himself, in which he makes the offer to meet Langford. The camera does not lie.

Following is a letter from Mr. Bettinson, secretary of the National Sporting Club, which I received today:

National Sporting Club, Ltd.,
Covent Garden, W.C.
April 23, 1909

Dear Sir - I cabled you the other day that Johnson's statements were untrue, in consequence of several American newspaper cuttings I had received, in which he stated he repudiated Fitzpatrick's contracts, as if he had not any knowledge of what had been done.

Of course you will see by the enclosed photograph, that Johnson was absolutely personally responsible. In fact, the suggestion to box Langford for the same purse, win or lose, with Burns, came from him; and at the time, I thought it very decent of him to make the offer. The club did not ask him to do so, and I am quite certain we should always have been willing to have made a bigger offer, in the event of a victory over Burns. However, he is a ******, and a very bad type of one; and, as far as the club is concerned, we do not wish to bother about him, but when I see him making lying statements in the American Papers, I think it only right that I should repudiate them.

I think Johnson is throwing away the substance for the shadow, as he had 6,000 pounds worth of contracts booked up in London for six months of easy work. Of course, he may get more money in American, but I think this is pretty good booking for a black man.

I am please to say, we have got a good English champion. He is a big fellow, fourteen stone, and can really box well. He knocked out Moir in 2 min. 47 sec. on Monday evening last, and could do it at any time when called upon. Personally, I think he would have a great chance with Tommy Burns. How he will fare with Langford, I do not know, but he is very confident that no twelve-stone man can beat him. As a matter of fact he has seen Johnson, and think he could beat him. Still, we must wait to see how he goes with Langford before saying too much.
Sincerely yours,
A.F. Bettinson

No wonder Johnson is hissed and hooted at his every appearance on the stage here. Lovers of boxing the world over are naturally lovers of fair play. There is no other game which is so keenly sensitive to the touch of dishonor, and when there comes along a faker he generally reaps the reward for which he has sown the seen.

Langford is little better than Johnson. He has tricked and "pulled" and faked in the ring whenever it suited the purpose of his backers. He has hopped aside when Johnson almost caught with the goods on him.

I should like to see the two of 'em inside the ropes, and I'd like very much to see them winde up like the snake who got his tail in his mouth and swallowed himself holus bolus. I'd send a couple of wreaths.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:00 PM   #84
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

The letter that Bettinson sent a photograph of to The World from Johnson was dated September 19, 1908 and read:

"I undertake and agree to carry out my Contest with Sam Langford on the 22nd February 1909, on the same terms and conditions as already arranged with Langford, visa - $1,000 purse, and one third of the interest in any Bioscopic Pictures that may be taken.

At the same time, allow me to tender my thanks to you for the courtesy you have extended to myself any my Manager, - Mr. Sam Fitzpatrick, whilst we have been in this Country.

I am, Gentleman
Yours faithfully
(Signed Jack Johnson) Will try to insert image next.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:04 PM   #85
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

Ok, dangit, I don't know how to post the image of the signed letter. Say's I have to enter a URL address. Anybody on here able to tell me how to accomplish it in another manner? I can email the jpeg to anyone who would be able to post it here.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:02 PM   #86
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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:36 PM   #87
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Thanks. Let's see if this link works:

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Old 03-24-2013, 02:45 AM   #88
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

It works.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:27 AM   #89
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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On December 26th of 1908, Jack Johnson lifted the heavyweight crown from Tommy Burns in a lopsided fight that was finally stopped in the 14th round. Johnson had chased Burns to England where the National Sporting Club had tried to arrange a fight between the two, but Burns had declared that he would not fight Johnson for anything less than 6,000 pounds. When Burns went to Australia he found a promoter willing to meet that price in Hugh ‘Big Deal’ McIntosh, of Sydney. Johnson was short on cash to make the trip to Australia but Mr. Bettinson of the National Sporting Club, jumped in and advanced Johnson and his manager, Sam Fitzpatrick, sufficient money to fund their journey on the understanding that if Johnson beat Burns he would double back to London to fight Sam Langford.

Eugene Corri recalls that previous to Johnson’s leaving England to fight Burns at Sydney, Johnson promised the late Mr. Bettinson of the National Sporting Club that, win or lose with Burns, he would fight Langford in London the night before the Derby. That was always the night of the year at the Club.

Johnson himself had provided his agreement to this in the following form prior to his departure from England to Australia to meet Tommy Burns for the title.

“Gentleman,

I undertake and agree to carry out my contest with Sam Langford on the 22nd February 1909, on the same terms and conditions as already arranged with Langford, viz., 1000 pounds purse and one third of the interest in any bioscope pictures that may be taken. At the same time allow me to tender my thanks to you for the courtesy you have extended to myself and my manager, Mr. Sam Fitzpatrick, whilst we have been in this country.

I am, gentleman,
Yours faithfully,
J. Johnson.”

However, after winning the title, and reminded of his obligation to the National Sporting Club, Johnson decided that the terms he had previously agreed to were no longer sufficient and declared that he wouldn’t fight at the Club for less than 6,000 pounds. He wrote that the “The offer of the Club was absolutely ridiculous” and that “Being a champion, I don’t see why the National Sporting Club has a right to dictate to me as to how much I shall receive for my appearance and boxing ability. If they don’t want to give me my price, which is 6,000 pounds win, lose, or draw, they can call things off. I am a boxing man and can now get my price and I don’t care what the public thinks.”

Mr. Bettinson knew of course that Johnson could not be forced to carry out his agreement, but also felt that Johnson was determined to wiggle out of a meeting with Langford. While acknowledging it was impossible to say what would have happened had the two men met again, for the representatives of the Club’s part, they believed all the odds would not have been against Langford, who they considered a murderous fighter, equal in cleverness, though not as blatantly as Johnson.

Langford travelled all the way from Boston to enable Johnson to keep his promise. He had been enroute by boat from America when Johnson advised the National Athletic Club he wouldn’t be abiding to an agreement made prior to this departure to Australia to meet Burns. Johnson, when accused of signing an agreement in London to fight Langford, declared he never signed any such document and that Fitzpartrick was the signer. Charles F. Mathison was American matchmaker for the National Sporting Club, and he forwarded Johnson’s denial to A.F. Bettinson, manager of that club. Bettinson cabled this reply: “Jonson’s statement untrue. Contract signed by him. Not Fitzpatrick. Am sending photograph of agreement.” The photograph arrived in due time and was reproduced in The Morning World by it’s sporting editor, “Wurra Wurra” McLoughlin. On arriving at the Club, Langford sought Bettinson and asked “What about this Johnson fight?”

When he was told that Johnson could not be found, a disappointed Langford replied, I suppose you will be able to fix me up with someone. I bar nobody. Anybody you suggest I’ll fight. Size makes no difference to me. The bigger they are the easier they are to hit, and they go down heavier.”
Hugh big deal MacIntosh?
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:47 AM   #90
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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Ok, dangit, I don't know how to post the image of the signed letter. Say's I have to enter a URL address. Anybody on here able to tell me how to accomplish it in another manner? I can email the jpeg to anyone who would be able to post it here.
If you say you have a copy of it, I'll take your word for it.
I still think £1000 was a paltry sum to offer Johnson and expect him to come back from Australia to defend his new crown for . What is that fable where one creature offers another a deal to get himself out of a sticky situation, then afterwards reverts back to his original self , justifying it by saying ,"Ah but I said that when I was in trouble,Im ok now"?

Bettinson was a nasty piece of work of, he made sure no black man was allowed to fight for British titles for many decades when he took his revenge .

Last edited by mcvey; 03-25-2013 at 03:57 AM.
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