Henry Armstrong vs Ike Williams

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69

Bobcat Montgomery beats them both!

Montgomery was a helluva fighter who I saw against Beau Jack at MSG in a War Bond Drive. Still remember the song"Any Bonds Today". What a freakin strong lightweight quintet of the 1940s.
Ike Williams
Beau Jack
Bob Montgomery
Willie Joyce
Sammy Angott
All in their primes, fighting each other often, Title fights 15 rounds...
But the fight I remember best was when the ill-fated Al [bummy] Davis
flattened the 8-1 favorite Bob Montgomery in the very first round with
tremendous left hooks...I miss those long ago days. Yessir...

[Kiwi Kid]

I'd go with a UD for Armstrong

[PhillyPhan69]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Montgomery was a helluva fighter who I saw against Beau Jack at MSG in a War Bond Drive. Still remember the song"Any Bonds Today". What a freakin strong lightweight quintet of the 1940s.
Ike Williams
Beau Jack
Bob Montgomery
Willie Joyce
Sammy Angott
All in their primes, fighting each other often, Title fights 15 rounds...
But the fight I remember best was when the ill-fated Al [bummy] Davis
flattened the 8-1 favorite Bob Montgomery in the very first round with
tremendous left hooks...I miss those long ago days. Yessir...

I was just jokin' either way. I do however think that Montgomery beat Williams when both were closest to their primes, although that may be debatable. I also wouldn't favor Montgomery over Armstrong.....although not having your benifit of seeing him first hand (coupled w/ no known footage) it is a major speculation on my part.

I also think I would favor Armstrong over Williams

[ETM]

I want to pick Williams but I really cant. If his power doesnt have a major effect on Henry then what recourse does Ike Williams have? He had good boxing skills but I dont know if a prime Henry Armstrong can be outboxed. He just didnt give his opponent the time or room to box.

I guess when you have power like Ike Williams your neve out of a fight but Id have to favor Henry Armstrong by UD.

[turpinr]

too close to call

[laxpdx]

Armstrong's style plays right into Ike's hands. Henry will push him hard no doubt, but would pay dearly for it. Armstrong's severely slashed-up face would evoke images of Beau Jack.

[Manassa]

I used to say Armstrong, I used to say Williams. Difficult choice. Williams' style is just about perfect; though he may have stalled against more technical boxers, he was truly lethal if the opponent came to him. His hooks and uppercuts were accurate, fast and powerful.

At the same time, there's no real style to overcome Armstrong, who I'd say was the most formidable physical force of all time. Williams' method is about closest. Armstrong was probably better (and the best ever) at 126-130lbs, but against lightweights he did almost as well.

Draw

[Surf-Bat]

Ike was a good friend of mine, so this one is especially hard for me to be unbiased in assessing. The late LA Times writer Jim Murray once described him as being so good with his hands that he "could have played piano with his gloves on" and that he possessed "all the fighting instincts of a treed leopard." Those were pretty darn accurate descriptions of this amazing fighter.

Could Ike's ripping uppercuts and slashing hooks be enough to keep the powerful Armstrong at bay? I dunno. That's the key question for me. Zivic was able to, but he was naturally bigger and stronger than Ike. Williams at his best proved to have the right style to handle the pressure fighters like Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery. But could he have done so against the ultimate pressure fighter? I also must factor in that I think Hank would have been a more effective fighter if he'd remained at lightweight.

I favor Hank, but not by much. Ike may indeed have the tools and power to handle him and keep him from imposing his will.

[Surf-Bat]

BTW...this fight would have never happened. Why? Ike's words to me: "I worshiped the ground he walked on. I wouldn't have fought him no matter what they paid me."

[Manassa]

Bat - what are your opinions on Williams' punching ability?

I rate him in the top ten all-time - in contrast to my reasoning for Armstrong (overwhelming knockout consistency at his peak - people forget this and get used to his filmed decisions), I regard Williams highly due to his peak ability. In full flight, he was incredible. TKO1 Gatica and TKO6 Jack are two of the most impressive displays of attack I've ever seen.

People ask about his paltry knockout percentage, and my main answer is; Williams had more to his game than punching. He had an excellent jab and was a top body puncher. He could rip up anyone who came at him, but most wouldn't dare.

Other, less significant reasons may be political. What's your take on this?

[Surf-Bat]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Bat - what are your opinions on Williams' punching ability?

I rate him in the top ten all-time - in contrast to my reasoning for Armstrong (overwhelming knockout consistency at his peak - people forget this and get used to his filmed decisions), I regard Williams highly due to his peak ability. In full flight, he was incredible. TKO1 Gatica and TKO6 Jack are two of the most impressive displays of attack I've ever seen.

People ask about his paltry knockout percentage, and my main answer is; Williams had more to his game than punching. He had an excellent jab and was a top body puncher. He could rip up anyone who came at him, but most wouldn't dare.

Other, less significant reasons may be political. What's your take on this?

I don't put much stake in KO percentages because for some strange reason they take losses into account. I'm no math whiz, but this makes zero sense to me. Ike stopped 61 opponents in 127 wins during one of the toughest stretches in division history. He floored Kid Gavilan (something no one else but Carmen Basilio ever did), stopped the dreaded Freddie Dawson with one punch and stopped a veritable who's-who of the LW division champs and challengers- Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Juan Zurita, Johnny Bratton, Tippy Larkin, Enrique Bolanos, Jesse Flores, Buddy Garcia, Ronnie James, Dave Castilloux...

That's a lot of top names. Williams was obviously a deadly puncher.

You mentioned Gatica. That Argentinean boy was on a tear when Ike stopped him.

Also remember that Franke Carbo (via Blinky Palermo) controlled Ike's career. According to Ike he had to sometimes hold back from utilizing his sleep-inducer, like in his fight here in L.A. with Enrique Bolanos. Who knows how many fights he held back in?

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by Surf-Bat

I don't put much stake in KO percentages because for some strange reason they take losses into account. I'm no math whiz, but this makes zero sense to me. Ike stopped 61 opponents in 127 wins during one of the toughest stretches in division history. He floored Kid Gavilan (something no one else but Carmen Basilio ever did), stopped the dreaded Freddie Dawson with one punch and stopped a veritable who's-who of the LW division champs and challengers- Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Juan Zurita, Johnny Bratton, Tippy Larkin, Enrique Bolanos, Jesse Flores, Buddy Garcia, Ronnie James, Dave Castilloux...

That's a lot of top names. Williams was obviously a deadly puncher.

You mentioned Gatica. That Argentinean boy was on a tear when Ike stopped him.

Also remember that Franke Carbo (via Blinky Palermo) controlled Ike's career. According to Ike he had to sometimes hold back from utilizing his sleep-inducer, like in his fight here in L.A. with Enrique Bolanos. Who knows how many fights he held back in?

Yeah that's what I meant by 'political reasons.' I didn't like to say too much but from the various stories I've read, it seems like Ike often fought with the weight of outside-the-ring matters hanging over him.

I would suggest Williams' era was the toughest in lightweight history. He came out on top, in between fighting welterweights, and for that he's definitely top five all-time in the division.

[Senya13]

Don't think Ike Williams' era was tougher than around the turn of the century or around 1920.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Don't think Ike Williams' era was tougher than around the turn of the century or around 1920.

No?

I tend to think it was due to a larger talent pool. Not by massive margins, but margins nonetheless. At the least, the second tier of boxers in 1945 were stronger.

[Senya13]

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