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Old 03-09-2013, 12:22 AM   #91
Vanboxingfan
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAG1965 View Post
at least ESB has guys like this which show consistency.

Mag, yes you're consistent, but unfortunately you're consistently wrong.

To determine where Duran stands you have to do the following:

1. Evaluate his record at Lightweight, which is no worse than top 3. Also consider his longivity and the number of fights he's had. If you stop there, he's probably top 15-20

Next, his win over Leonard, who is certainly top 5 w.w. of all time.
If you stop there, he's closing in on top 10.

And just like you insist on punishing Duran for his losses, which is fair, you can't then decide to downplay this win. You can't have it both ways.

Loss to SRL was a huge blemish, but it really was more of a mental deficiency than anything else. but yes it was bad. At the very worst, this loss, negates the win, it can't be any worse than that.

His loss to Hearns, wasn't nearly so bad because you're really getting into a huge, huge size mismatch.

You say Pac beat more ATG's, which of those ATG's would have beaten either SRL or Hearns?

So this leaves him around the top 15-20 mark again. His near win over Hagler and his win over Barkley are huge.. putting him again in the top 10 or close to it. Barkley beat Hearns twice and he's a physical monster compared to Duran. He had every conceivable advantage except boxing skills. He was younger, stronger, taller, faster, longer reach, and far more power, it should have been a mismatch. And Hagler, is a top 5 ATG middleweight how can going the distance with him be meaningless?

Again back to your pac comparison, would Pac have gone the distance with Hagler, and beat Barkley?

So we're back to him being close or in the top 10.

Lost to Benitez, Sims beat Moore, and Palomino again, a bit of a wash.

The difference between him and say SRL, is that I agree, SRL showed great diversity in terms of having to fight various styles, but he woefully lacked in the number of fights he fought. Duran stuck around long enough to see him go into a major slump, and then get out of it.

But beating SRL (who beat Benitez) and Barkley (who beat Hearns) shows that on any given day a closely matched fight can go either way. And the reason I like Duran so much is exactly why I don't like Mayweather, he wasn't scared to loose. He just wanted to test himself to the limit and give the fans their monies worth. Even SRL can't say that. His career was far more calculated with hand picked opponents than Duran's ever was, because he had the marketing power of being American and having that gold metal.

So no way is Pac rated higher than Duran, for the reasons I've outlined, and the main reason Duran rates higher than SRL boils down to longivity more than anything else.
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Old 03-09-2013, 01:59 AM   #92
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

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Originally Posted by Vanboxingfan View Post
Mag, yes you're consistent, but unfortunately you're consistently wrong.

To determine where Duran stands you have to do the following:

1. Evaluate his record at Lightweight, which is no worse than top 3. Also consider his longivity and the number of fights he's had. If you stop there, he's probably top 15-20

Next, his win over Leonard, who is certainly top 5 w.w. of all time.
If you stop there, he's closing in on top 10.

And just like you insist on punishing Duran for his losses, which is fair, you can't then decide to downplay this win. You can't have it both ways.

Loss to SRL was a huge blemish, but it really was more of a mental deficiency than anything else. but yes it was bad. At the very worst, this loss, negates the win, it can't be any worse than that.

His loss to Hearns, wasn't nearly so bad because you're really getting into a huge, huge size mismatch.

You say Pac beat more ATG's, which of those ATG's would have beaten either SRL or Hearns?

So this leaves him around the top 15-20 mark again. His near win over Hagler and his win over Barkley are huge.. putting him again in the top 10 or close to it. Barkley beat Hearns twice and he's a physical monster compared to Duran. He had every conceivable advantage except boxing skills. He was younger, stronger, taller, faster, longer reach, and far more power, it should have been a mismatch. And Hagler, is a top 5 ATG middleweight how can going the distance with him be meaningless?

Again back to your pac comparison, would Pac have gone the distance with Hagler, and beat Barkley?

So we're back to him being close or in the top 10.

Lost to Benitez, Sims beat Moore, and Palomino again, a bit of a wash.

The difference between him and say SRL, is that I agree, SRL showed great diversity in terms of having to fight various styles, but he woefully lacked in the number of fights he fought. Duran stuck around long enough to see him go into a major slump, and then get out of it.

But beating SRL (who beat Benitez) and Barkley (who beat Hearns) shows that on any given day a closely matched fight can go either way. And the reason I like Duran so much is exactly why I don't like Mayweather, he wasn't scared to loose. He just wanted to test himself to the limit and give the fans their monies worth. Even SRL can't say that. His career was far more calculated with hand picked opponents than Duran's ever was, because he had the marketing power of being American and having that gold metal.

So no way is Pac rated higher than Duran, for the reasons I've outlined, and the main reason Duran rates higher than SRL boils down to longivity more than anything else.
This is a cool post. You and MAG made the best posts in this thread so far!!! Good points.
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Old 03-09-2013, 03:51 AM   #93
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

There isn't one single victory IMO but these are his career defining wins...

Leonard
Barkley
Castro
Buchanan
Moore
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:44 AM   #94
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

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Originally Posted by MAG1965 View Post
Is this about me or Duran. You call me pompous and then you are making me the topic of this thread and not Duran. Duran was not a small guy in weight and handling bigger weights. He went up in weight more than any of the fab 4, and much higher than Benitez ever did. Like I said he was at 154 in 1978 before Benitez,Hearns or Leonard ever fought there. What am I lying about?
And when I see a thread about Duran I try to avoid it because it does not get anywhere. I find myself repeating what I have said before. My opinion will not change on the subject since I have believed what I believe about Duran since the late 1980s.
But if I see a comment that the best win in boxing history is Duran over Leonard when Duran was prime and Ray was still improving, and still Ray fought his fight and Duran could not knock him out, I have a hard time not commenting because I know in my heart that no way is that win the greatest in history. And people saying little Duran moving up and beating the great Ray Leonard is making Duran small and Ray great just to make the win greater, when Duran handled the weight well and Ray was not the peak champion he was later.
Ray was not yet a great fighter. He was improving, and if you do not understand how a great fighter is always a work in progress from when he was younger, than I am not sure discussing anything here matters. The fact that Ray retired in 1982 makes 1980 seem like he was prime, but had he fought like Hearns did the whole decade and into the 1990s, 1980 would have been seen more as his learning years, which it was.
You lied on a previous thread when you wrote that Duran was naturally bigger than Benitez. That is a lie. You wrote that Duran fought at 154 before Hearns and Benitez. Fair enough. But that does NOT make Duran naturally bigger than those 2. That claim simply isn't logical. And you NEVER avoid a Duran thread on the Classic. Why you lied about that I've no idea. In fact you make threads that have nothing to do with Duran into threads about him. And if Leonard was "not yet a great fighter" when he fought Duran, then according to that logic, Benitez could not have been a great fighter because as we all know Leonard knocked him out before Lenny fought Duran. Again, you've no logic there. If you prefer to avoid commenting on Duran in various threads and would like to not "be drawn into his threads", I'll make a deal with you. You don't comment on any more Duran threads, and I won't comment on any more of your comments. Just for the record, people don't write "Where's Mag?" because they want you to repeat the same illogic. They just expect you to comment about Duran because you can't help yourself.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:47 AM   #95
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanboxingfan View Post
Mag, yes you're consistent, but unfortunately you're consistently wrong.

To determine where Duran stands you have to do the following:

1. Evaluate his record at Lightweight, which is no worse than top 3. Also consider his longivity and the number of fights he's had. If you stop there, he's probably top 15-20

Next, his win over Leonard, who is certainly top 5 w.w. of all time.
If you stop there, he's closing in on top 10.

And just like you insist on punishing Duran for his losses, which is fair, you can't then decide to downplay this win. You can't have it both ways.

Loss to SRL was a huge blemish, but it really was more of a mental deficiency than anything else. but yes it was bad. At the very worst, this loss, negates the win, it can't be any worse than that.

His loss to Hearns, wasn't nearly so bad because you're really getting into a huge, huge size mismatch.

You say Pac beat more ATG's, which of those ATG's would have beaten either SRL or Hearns?

So this leaves him around the top 15-20 mark again. His near win over Hagler and his win over Barkley are huge.. putting him again in the top 10 or close to it. Barkley beat Hearns twice and he's a physical monster compared to Duran. He had every conceivable advantage except boxing skills. He was younger, stronger, taller, faster, longer reach, and far more power, it should have been a mismatch. And Hagler, is a top 5 ATG middleweight how can going the distance with him be meaningless?

Again back to your pac comparison, would Pac have gone the distance with Hagler, and beat Barkley?

So we're back to him being close or in the top 10.

Lost to Benitez, Sims beat Moore, and Palomino again, a bit of a wash.

The difference between him and say SRL, is that I agree, SRL showed great diversity in terms of having to fight various styles, but he woefully lacked in the number of fights he fought. Duran stuck around long enough to see him go into a major slump, and then get out of it.

But beating SRL (who beat Benitez) and Barkley (who beat Hearns) shows that on any given day a closely matched fight can go either way. And the reason I like Duran so much is exactly why I don't like Mayweather, he wasn't scared to loose. He just wanted to test himself to the limit and give the fans their monies worth. Even SRL can't say that. His career was far more calculated with hand picked opponents than Duran's ever was, because he had the marketing power of being American and having that gold metal.

So no way is Pac rated higher than Duran, for the reasons I've outlined, and the main reason Duran rates higher than SRL boils down to longivity more than anything else.
This is one of the best posts I have ever read on ESB. Nicely done, Van the Man
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:32 AM   #96
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

He ain't in my top 10 but beating a peak Leonard is his defining victory.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:49 AM   #97
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanboxingfan View Post
Mag, yes you're consistent, but unfortunately you're consistently wrong.

To determine where Duran stands you have to do the following:

1. Evaluate his record at Lightweight, which is no worse than top 3. Also consider his longivity and the number of fights he's had. If you stop there, he's probably top 15-20

Next, his win over Leonard, who is certainly top 5 w.w. of all time.
If you stop there, he's closing in on top 10.

And just like you insist on punishing Duran for his losses, which is fair, you can't then decide to downplay this win. You can't have it both ways.

Loss to SRL was a huge blemish, but it really was more of a mental deficiency than anything else. but yes it was bad. At the very worst, this loss, negates the win, it can't be any worse than that.

His loss to Hearns, wasn't nearly so bad because you're really getting into a huge, huge size mismatch.

You say Pac beat more ATG's, which of those ATG's would have beaten either SRL or Hearns?

So this leaves him around the top 15-20 mark again. His near win over Hagler and his win over Barkley are huge.. putting him again in the top 10 or close to it. Barkley beat Hearns twice and he's a physical monster compared to Duran. He had every conceivable advantage except boxing skills. He was younger, stronger, taller, faster, longer reach, and far more power, it should have been a mismatch. And Hagler, is a top 5 ATG middleweight how can going the distance with him be meaningless?

Again back to your pac comparison, would Pac have gone the distance with Hagler, and beat Barkley?

So we're back to him being close or in the top 10.

Lost to Benitez, Sims beat Moore, and Palomino again, a bit of a wash.

The difference between him and say SRL, is that I agree, SRL showed great diversity in terms of having to fight various styles, but he woefully lacked in the number of fights he fought. Duran stuck around long enough to see him go into a major slump, and then get out of it.

But beating SRL (who beat Benitez) and Barkley (who beat Hearns) shows that on any given day a closely matched fight can go either way. And the reason I like Duran so much is exactly why I don't like Mayweather, he wasn't scared to loose. He just wanted to test himself to the limit and give the fans their monies worth. Even SRL can't say that. His career was far more calculated with hand picked opponents than Duran's ever was, because he had the marketing power of being American and having that gold metal.

So no way is Pac rated higher than Duran, for the reasons I've outlined, and the main reason Duran rates higher than SRL boils down to longivity more than anything else.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:51 AM   #98
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
He ain't in my top 10 but beating a peak Leonard is his defining victory.
i've had trouble justifying it lately but honestly he's in mine because i simply cannot think of 10 fighters...EVER...who were better than him
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:55 AM   #99
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

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i've had trouble justifying it lately but honestly he's in mine because i simply cannot think of 10 fighters...EVER...who were better than him
I'd go for

Robinson
Greb
Armstrong
Langford
Fitzsimmons
Charles
Ali
Leonard
Moore
Pep

Although something feels a bit off there so I think I missed someone. Its something like that though. Maybe I'd put Duran above Pep but I'm not sure yet.
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:13 PM   #100
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
I'd go for

Robinson
Greb
Armstrong
Langford
Fitzsimmons
Charles
Ali
Leonard
Moore
Pep

Although something feels a bit off there so I think I missed someone. Its something like that though. Maybe I'd put Duran above Pep but I'm not sure yet.
fair list. in terms of who is just plain better, i'd probably put duran above ali (that pains me...) and pep. duran just brought more to the table
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:18 PM   #101
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

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fair list. in terms of who is just plain better, i'd probably put duran above ali (that pains me...) and pep. duran just brought more to the table
In terms of who's better he's in my top 5 I think

Robinson
Whittaker
Jones
Armstrong
Duran
Leaonard
Hearns
Hagler
Ali
Pep
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:26 PM   #102
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

Duran is an absolute lock for my top 10.
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:27 PM   #103
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Duran was 18 years old, it was his 17th pro fight and he won the title 25 months later while Marcel was 21 years old, in his 28th pro fight and won the title 18 months later. Claiming Marcel was pre prime to discredit the win isn't accurate imo as Duran was even more pre prime than Marcel was.
Wow I'm the last person you could accuse of underrating this victory mate.
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:36 PM   #104
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Default Re: the win that got Duran into the top 10?

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In terms of who's better he's in my top 5 I think

Robinson
Whittaker
Jones
Armstrong
Duran
Leaonard
Hearns
Hagler
Ali
Pep
i like it...though i'm finding i'm much harder on hagler in recent times. he could box, he could brawl and his boxer-puncher performances were fantastic but he had trouble ad******g and switching styles mid-fight

won it or not, the duran fight always strikes me as a knock against him

for pep, i really dig him and respect his record and abilities but on the post prime film we have, prefer the defense of locche and whitaker and his offense is pretty minimal
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