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Old 03-16-2013, 02:57 PM   #1426
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Wlad's 1-2 is perfect. Yes, perfect. As in, I have not seen a heavyweight throw that combination better. He hooks off the jab very, very well. His lead left hook is very powerful and quick, despite often being telegraphed. He moves his feet to keep distance masterfully.

Problem is, that's all there is. It's extremely formidable, extremely hard to get around, but when you are around it, you have your big chances. No inside game. No uppercuts. Body punching is so sporadic as to be a non-factor. Only throws in combination with a badly hurt opponent or a sitting target(Byrd II, Wach, Brock).

The other thing that hurts him against guys like Tyson is his tendency to overwhelm or wait. If he doesn't get you with his opening tries in the first 4 rounds, he tends to settle in rather than push the issue. He was much better against Wach, trying to finish the whole 12 rounds(His roided out opponent just would not go), but until I see more of it, I'll say his trend is what he's shown in Rahman, Ibragimov, Thompson I...If you hang around, he lets you hang around. If Tyson DIDN'T take Wlad out early, for the sake of example, he'd have a chance to do it late. Same with Louis.

In the end, I think it all comes down to the jab and the clinch. If you have a way past or through the jab, you get in. If you have a way to prevent, outfight, or jump the clinch(Frazier would jump the hell out of the clinch, and I think Louis could too if he focused on that effort), then, you have a massive punching bag; There is nothing else. Thing is, you get stuck behind that jab, and you are probably getting outjabbed. Then comes the right, and if necessary, the big left, and that's just trouble for anybody. If you can't stop the holding, you are going to keep getting reset at his preferred range, and eventually, he gets a chance to establish his jab all over again, and you have to contend with an incredible drain on your legs and lungs fighting all that mauling.

It's a solvable puzzle, but if you've boxed, you know it's a damn difficult one. Guys like Tyson and Ali have the hand and the footspeed to accomplish it, guys like Holmes and Liston have the very rare chance to outjab him, Lewis can outfight him because he's just as big and strong and ten times as mean, and Frazier has the educated pressure and ability to work around holding. Louis has the ability to punch short and still cause tremendous damage, even though it seems obvious to me he'd be outgunned outside, I think he'd find his target in no-man's land eventually and Joe Louis rarely needed a second try.

Wlad belongs. He might not be the best heavyweight h2h, or anything close, but he's a massive headache to deal with. Just a dangerous pain in the ass.
Perfectly put Magna, my thoughts exactly. When I think about Wlad I always think that his greatest strengths are his greatest weaknesses. Not only do you need the skills but you need the right temperament to get through that wall of a range controlling jab. This is what deters me from confidently picking Liston. He could be pestered, and I'm not exactly confident he has the mental fortitude and fleet-footedness to get the job done. No, I don't quite think Liston can outjab Wlad either considering he's at a height and arguable speed disadvantage.
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:13 PM   #1427
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

I think Brewster set the bar for what beats wlad, somewhere between Brewster and Peter.

You need head movement, a true frame 6' 200+ pounds. A good chin, huge power and immense heart.

Wlad will beat up these guys until they outlast and it takes something special to take that kinda punishment and still have enough to finish a fight.
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:54 PM   #1428
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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I think Brewster set the bar for what beats wlad, somewhere between Brewster and Peter.

You need head movement, a true frame 6' 200+ pounds. A good chin, huge power and immense heart.

Wlad will beat up these guys until they outlast and it takes something special to take that kinda punishment and still have enough to finish a fight.
Does that same fighter beat the Wlad who went on his run over the past seven years? In fact, that same fighter was KO'd by Wlad after the fact.

I still think that's the basic blue print. But add some speed, like that of Tyson, and you have a great recipe to beat him. Easier said than done, tho.
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:11 PM   #1429
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

Sooooo BE or boggle, can you wrap this up?
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:56 PM   #1430
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Does that same fighter beat the Wlad who went on his run over the past seven years? In fact, that same fighter was KO'd by Wlad after the fact.

I still think that's the basic blue print. But add some speed, like that of Tyson, and you have a great recipe to beat him. Easier said than done, tho.
Honestly, wlad has rarely looked better than he did in the first 4 against Brewster.

I also think the eye problems need to be taken into account, especially when his game plan was too watch out for wlad's right, duck under it and unleash a left hook.

So yeah, put Brewster from that night in with any version of wlad and i think wlad gets stopped.

wlad had a bad 60 second spell in the fight, other than that he looked just as good as he ever did and ever would.

Sanders is anomalous, noone else fights like him. Purrity caught a young man not used to the distance. Brewster provides a blue print.
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:38 PM   #1431
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

The Brewster fight was wild. I've NEVER seen a top shelf heavyweight gas in 60 seconds. One minute, he's beating Brewster up, next minute, he can't breathe, he's eating big shots, and he looks like a zombie.

Wild fight.

Can't say I see it as a blueprint, honestly. It hasn't ever happened again.

Sounded like whining excuses at the time, but I think there might be something to Wlad's claims he was some kind of sick that night. I've not seen anything like that in my years in boxing. He was literally done, without eating a big punch, in the span of a half a minute.

And before anybody accuses me of bias, Lamon Brewster is a personal friend, Wlad is not. He was made of iron that night, and fought bravely, like a true champion. I still think he might have legit caught Wlad late in that fight.
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:46 PM   #1432
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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The Brewster fight was wild. I've NEVER seen a top shelf heavyweight gas in 60 seconds. One minute, he's beating Brewster up, next minute, he can't breathe, he's eating big shots, and he looks like a zombie.

Wild fight.
That's when the poison kick in.
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:02 PM   #1433
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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That's when the poison kick in.
I don't believe the poison bull****. The blood sugar? Quite possible. Again, I've never seen a guy shut down like that when he's that on top. Lamon didn't land anything.

I'll tell you what, though, he sure as hell finished the matter when he smelled blood. Some of those hooks were wicked. I think Lamon was 10 seconds away from laying him out in a violent, KO of the year type knockout. He was letting em go from the hips.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:15 PM   #1434
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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I don't believe the poison bull****. The blood sugar? Quite possible. Again, I've never seen a guy shut down like that when he's that on top. Lamon didn't land anything.

I'll tell you what, though, he sure as hell finished the matter when he smelled blood. Some of those hooks were wicked. I think Lamon was 10 seconds away from laying him out in a violent, KO of the year type knockout. He was letting em go from the hips.
I cant agree with you that he didnt take a punch against Brewster.

Wlad couldnt stand up once Brewster hurt him. He did the same in the purity fight and the Sanders fight. His legs turned to jelly(though to be fair his heart tried to keep him going).

You may know better than me, but of all the all time greats, i think that Wlads chin is easily the most worrying. I dont think it is panic or exhaustion that everyone tries to suggest. Wlad is the best conditioned athlete (or at least close to it) of current times. He isnt going to gas like he allegedly does. There is a little bit to the panic thing for the modern Wlad, but i cant see panicking explaining Purity, Sanders or even Brewster. He was confident in all these fights and there his chin was never questioned the way it is today, i wouldnt have thought. I think it is definitely and without a doubt his achilles heel.

All of Wlads fights are filmed, but i cannot see a single fight where he has taken many clean shots at all. Lewis had a questionable chin because of his KO losses, but he ate plenty of huge shots. Same Goes with Jack Johnson and any other fighter. EVen Vitali. But i really can t think of Wlad taking any big shots and continuing on. AS soon as he is nailed cleanly, his legs seem to go to rubber and at least now he tries to clinch. But his rubber legs seem to last for an eternity, as with Brewster and it even seemed to nearly happen i think it was in his last fight with Wach.

Having sparred (presumably lots of rounds), you would think that you and others would have landed some heavy artillery on Wlad at some stage. Is his chin as shaky as it seems from every clean shot he is hit with, or would you say that he shakes off plenty of haymakers in sparring? It is an interesting topic, in some ways (andfor obvious reasons i wouldnt like him to do it) i think he could benefit from some Muhammed Ali style rope a dope training. To improve his chin. With a good chin, he might be the greatest fighter ever, although i suppose we would still have the lack of an inside game to pick on.

Anyway, i guess the long winded question, is what is your perception of Wlads chin and ability to take a punch since i presume you have seen him tested more than anyone else on here has.
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:45 PM   #1435
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

Wlad is a totally different fighter now than the one who fought brewster in 2004. Much better, MUCH better.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:34 PM   #1436
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Wlad is a totally different fighter now than the one who fought brewster in 2004. Much better, MUCH better.
much more cautious, not better
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:45 PM   #1437
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
The Brewster fight was wild. I've NEVER seen a top shelf heavyweight gas in 60 seconds. One minute, he's beating Brewster up, next minute, he can't breathe, he's eating big shots, and he looks like a zombie.

Wild fight.

Can't say I see it as a blueprint, honestly. It hasn't ever happened again.

Sounded like whining excuses at the time, but I think there might be something to Wlad's claims he was some kind of sick that night. I've not seen anything like that in my years in boxing. He was literally done, without eating a big punch, in the span of a half a minute.


And before anybody accuses me of bias, Lamon Brewster is a personal friend, Wlad is not. He was made of iron that night, and fought bravely, like a true champion. I still think he might have legit caught Wlad late in that fight.


he was throwing a lot of punches and Brewster still had some life in him even though he was dropped Vlad pushed and started to tire and then he got hit with a left hook, in that type of scenario Marciano would take him out IMO real Big guys like Lennox and Vlad don't recover well (a lot of body to recharge ) Vlad learned from that loss like Joe Louis learned from Schmeling.

I think the 1st Peter fight showed him a lot about himself and at this time he fights around his own weakness and is smart enough to not throw caution to the wind and pick the fruit before it is ripe. There may have been something funny about the fight but from my viewpoint getting hit when you are tired is the key in that fight. Vlad right now looks like a complete fighter and it also seems he adapted his style to his strengths and his weakness and that is something that a great fighter does. Marciano adapted to a 5"11 frame and short arms by being in the greatest condition a human can be in and he utilized his awkwardness and freakish power by attrition, stamina and determination, Vlad uses his brains, experience and size and from what i have been told he also has freakish power.

I am very big on Vlad right now and these next two years are going to be important for his legacy, he is the fittest and most experienced that he has been and IMO is prime but he did have fights in the past that he would have not survived Marciano dispite the size difference. At this point in time Vlad can hold his own with the best, Ali, Marciano, Louis,Foreman,Frazier, and Lewis, I am not saying he wins or loses that is speculation but he holds his own and on a given night wins
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:27 PM   #1438
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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he was throwing a lot of punches and Brewster still had some life in him even though he was dropped Vlad pushed and started to tire and then he got hit with a left hook, in that type of scenario Marciano would take him out IMO real Big guys like Lennox and Vlad don't recover well (a lot of body to recharge ) Vlad learned from that loss like Joe Louis learned from Schmeling.

I think the 1st Peter fight showed him a lot about himself and at this time he fights around his own weakness and is smart enough to not throw caution to the wind and pick the fruit before it is ripe. There may have been something funny about the fight but from my viewpoint getting hit when you are tired is the key in that fight. Vlad right now looks like a complete fighter and it also seems he adapted his style to his strengths and his weakness and that is something that a great fighter does. Marciano adapted to a 5"11 frame and short arms by being in the greatest condition a human can be in and he utilized his awkwardness and freakish power by attrition, stamina and determination, Vlad uses his brains, experience and size and from what i have been told he also has freakish power.

I am very big on Vlad right now and these next two years are going to be important for his legacy, he is the fittest and most experienced that he has been and IMO is prime but he did have fights in the past that he would have not survived Marciano dispite the size difference. At this point in time Vlad can hold his own with the best, Ali, Marciano, Louis,Foreman,Frazier, and Lewis, I am not saying he wins or loses that is speculation but he holds his own and on a given night wins
He's too one dimensional in my view for those guys.
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:28 PM   #1439
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

delete that

Last edited by dinovelvet; 03-17-2013 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 08:02 AM   #1440
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Does that same fighter beat the Wlad who went on his run over the past seven years? In fact, that same fighter was KO'd by Wlad after the fact.

I still think that's the basic blue print. But add some speed, like that of Tyson, and you have a great recipe to beat him. Easier said than done, tho.
Dont be an idiot all your life , yeah? Brewster was brought out of injury induced retirement and was pushing 40 for the rematch. He was the purest definition of shot to ****....The win means nothing.......Haye would of went through that 7 year run of opponents without a loss....Sam Peter is the type of guy who would make Haye look like an all time great....Wlad was hanging on and running away for his life against him.
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