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Old 03-16-2013, 12:17 PM   #121
Azzer85
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

Cant believe nobody commented on my post
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Old 03-16-2013, 01:03 PM   #122
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

You can banter back and foth all you want about who is better, skills, styles, speed, chin etc.. But, in the end, Tyson`s mental toughness and will was not in the league of Muhammad Ali. One of Ali`s greatest attributes was his heart and indomitable fighting spirit. You just don`t stay in with Liston (blinded in the 5th rd by a caustic liniment in his eyes) climb of the floor in the 15th rd in Superfight 1, endure a broken jaw (Norton), take the heavy handed bombs of George Foreman, or survive life and death with `Smokin` Joe in Manilla. Tyson folds when the going got tough. It`s about the will as much as the skill for this fight.And they are not on the same level when it came to will ...
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Old 03-16-2013, 01:05 PM   #123
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

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Originally Posted by Azzer85 View Post
Heres the link to my thread
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heres a copy/paste if u cant be arsed to read it

Thought i would post this interesting read from the Thomas Hauser book Muhammad Ali, His Life And Times.
Chapter: Burial, page 458

It talks about Alis opinion of Tyson as well as those of Teddy Atlas, Floyd Patterson, Bill Cayton, and Kevin Rooney, Jose Torres and Larry Holmes about how Ali Vs Tyson would pan out.

Interesting to see you guys thoughts.

Alis own heavyweight rankings place himself first, Jack Johnson second and Joe Louis in third place. Even before Mike Tysons shocking loss to James Buster Douglas, Ali said in private about Tyson, "He's predictable, the way he moves his head. He has fast hands, but hes slow on his feet and my hands were faster than his. The way to beat Tyson is with a fast jab, a hard right hand, and if he hits you, you have to be able to take a punch."


Larry Holmes, who fought Tyson when "Iron Mike" was at his peak, says, "Ali would have slapped Tyson all over the ring. Tyson hits hard but he's a bully, and Ali had a way of dealing with them. Can you imagine the things Ali would have said about Tyson before that fight? Hed have made Tyson so mad, Tyson would have been running into the ropes when they started the fight."

Holmes view of Alis ring supremacy is shared by Tysons early boxing family. Jose Torres and Floyd Patterson were guided to world titles by Tysons mento, Cus Damato. Bill Cayton served with Jim Jacobs as Tysons first co-managers. Kevin Rooney and Teddy Atlas worked with D'amato as Tysons trainers. When asked to match Ali in his prime against the best Tyson has been to date, all five said Ali would prevail.


Jose Torres
"You cant explain Ali in a conventional way because he consistently did the wrong thing in the ring. He didnt bend down, he didnt go to the body, he punched going backwards. He held his hands too low, he pulled straight back from punches. He didnt even throw combinations, he threw punches in flurries. And then he would win for two reasons - speed and magic.
Against Liston, Ali wanted to quit because of his eyes, but he got pushed out by Angelo Dundee and he wins. Its magic. Against Foreman he had no business to win, but he destroyed Foremans mind like a wizard. Its magic. If Ali at his best fought the best Mike Tyson, Mike would have more power, but there would be too much magic. Because of Cus, my heart would be with Tyson. But Ali would box Mike for 12 rounds, 15 rounds as many rounds as you want easily."

Floyd Patterson
"I dont want to say anything derogatory about anybody. All I know is, anybody who moves like Clay moved is going to give his opponent a lot of problems. Ive seen Tyson with guys who moved a bit, and he had difficulty, so imagine putting him in there with Clay. Mike can be hit with the left jab if you time it properly. I dont think he would have gotten by Clays left. And he wouldnt have knocked Clay out, because Clay took a very good punch and almost never got hit. Clay beats Tyson.

Bill Cayton
"I honestly believe that Mike Tyson at his best was the second greatest heavyweight of all time, but he wasnt Muhammad Ali. Mike is quick, but Ali was quicker. Mike had power but Ali had the greatest chin ever. And Mike unfortunately is prone to frustration, which would be his achilles heel against Ali, because Ali was the best fighter in history at playng mind games with his opponent. If Ali in his prime fought Mike at his best, i see Ali winning a decision;say eight rounds to four, or nine rounds to three."

Kevin Rooney
"Ali had that special belief in himself that allowed him to impose his will on other fighters. This is a guy who took on three of the toughest heavyweights in history, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier and George Foreman and beat them 5 out of 6 and when he fought Frazier and Foreman he wasnt even in his prime.
The young Ali would have frustrated Mike. I see Ali coming out, jabbing, moving talking alot. If Mike had me in his corner and his head was screwed on right, it would be close. Id advise Mike to keep his hands high, be elusive, slip, move in; whenever possible work the body. Lots of feints, because Ali was a terrific counterpuncher. Believe it or not, id work the jab even if it ws to Alis chest. It would have been an interesting fight, with both guys missing alot. But even with Mike at his best, id give the edge to Ali"

Teddy Atlas
"Ali at his best beats Tyson at his best. At his core, Ali is a much stronger, more stable person. Probably the way hed have fought Mike was to rely on what he did best: jab, score from the outside, stay off the ropes, show a lot of side to side movement, neutralize the pressure, make Mike pay when he missed, tie him up when he got inside. After a while, Mike would get anxious and he would be throwing one punch at a time. Then i think hed break down mentally, which is the area where Ali was the strongest. And when that happened, Ali would start putting punches together to punch Mike downhill even more. Finally when the time was right without it being too dangerous, Ali would give Mike a reason to fall. I think Ali would knock him out around the ninth or tenth round. But before that, Mike might get so discouraged and beaten mentally that hed quit the way Liston quit".
Excellent post !!
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:40 PM   #124
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

I'm doubting the authenticity of that post

Here's another interview with Rooney where he said that Tyson would beat Ali


By Scoop Malinowski

It’s always a pleasure to listen to Kevin Rooney talk about his old charge Mike Tyson, who in his prime years in the 1980′s, was the most exciting, destructive heavyweight force in boxing history. Check this out…

BoxingInsider: When was Mike at his prime best?

Kevin Rooney: ”When he beat Michael Spinks. He just wiped him out. Before that he beat Tony Tucker and Tyrell Biggs, the main fighters back then. He wiped out Tony Tucker – he won a 12 round decision, I mean, he kicked his ass. Then he knocked out Tyrell Biggs. He knocked out Larry Holmes. Then he fought Tony Tubbs in Japan – he starched him in two rounds. Then he knocked out Michael Spinks in 90 seconds. 90 seconds. It wasn’t a joke. I mean, he knocked him out. So I think that fighter, in my opinion, could have and should have probably beaten anybody that was in his path. Anybody including Rocky Marciano and Muhammad Ali. Well, I’ll give Muhammad Ali and Rocky – well it could have been different, I mean, Rocky punched like hell. Muhammad punched like hell. Rocky had beat everyone. Muhammad had heart and was hard to hit. The fights would have been interesting. But I believe that Mike would have come out the better. Because he punched very hard [laughs]. Mike…I believe that Mike is one of the hardest punchers in history. He punches harder than Rocky. Punches harder than Joe Louis. Punches harder than George Foreman.”

BoxingInsider: Didn’t sparring guys come to the gym, see Mike punch, then leave the gym?

Kevin Rooney: ”I don’t remember the guy’s name. I believe he was being paid $400 a week. This was in the early 80′s. The guy gets into the ring [laughs]. Bell rings, Mike comes out, bop, bop, bop. Mike throws combinations. He put his hands up, like, Hold it. He steps out of the ring over the top rope – he was big, like 6-4, 6-5 – and walks out of the front door. Didn’t look for his pay, just gone. We’re all like, what’s happening?! He wanted nothing to do with Mike. He just left. It was funny. Cus (D’Amato), Bill (Cayton), Jim (Jacobs) and Steve (Lott) would bring in a lot of fighters, just do one round. James Broad was a tough guy. There was a guy who would stay in there and give Mike the work, but then took a beating. I mean, every day they took a beating every day. That’s the way Mike was. He was strong, determined, and he wanted to hurt you.”

BoxingInsider: When do you believe Ali was at his prime and what would your strategy be for Mike vs. Ali?

Kevin Rooney: ”1966, 67, 68, in that time frame. After he beat Liston he just started annihilating guys that were going for the title. Knockin’ people out cold in tough fights, guys that weren’t pushovers. Muhammad dominated. The Muhammad Ali in 1966-67 and Mike Tyson in 1986-87-88-89 – that would have been an incredible fight. I think Mike would have won. He punched harder than Muhammad. But at that point, Muhammad would have had just a little bit more experience. Mike punched hard. Mike really, really punched hard. You’re talking about a kid, 20, 21, 22, against Ali who was 23, 24. It would have been a helluva fight. I would want Mike to put tremendous pressure on him. Cut him off. Get him on the ropes. Wing body shots and the uppercuts. Step to the side and if you got lucky enough, hit him with the right hand or left hook and he would be gone. But see, Muhammad was a great, great fighter. We call him the greatest fighter ever, he took a helluva shot. He never dogged it, he never quit. But the Mike Tyson that I was training – coming off of Cus D’Amato – I just think that that Mike Tyson would have won. Because he punched fast and hard. That’s a difficult combination to deal with. A guy that punches fast and hard, you got a guy that punches hard, well you’re a tough guy all right, well, so what? But when you got a kid that punches hard AND fast. Then all the sudden you’re like, who, who, damn, wait a minute. Right away your hands are gonna go up. You’re gonna be on the move. You’re gonna do this and you’re gonna wanna do that. You’re not gonna stand there and say, hit me again. So Mike had that.”

BoxingInsider: What Tyson fight were you most concerned with going in?
Kevin Rooney: ”None. None. When I had Mike we were in training camp for five weeks. Back then I used to run 3-4 miles with him just to make sure he was doing it. And then we’d go to the gym. And then we’d go to a health club at night. Then we’d go do bed. When he was with me there was no partying. There was no, well I worked hard, I’m gonna go have a few drinks and try to pick up a girl. That never happened. Hey Mike, guess what? We got a title to defend and you gotta be in tip-top shape. So that Mike Tyson, if he didn’t cross channels and went with Don King, he would have gone down as the greatest heavyweight in history. Now people are talking, ah, he’s nothing. But that’s not true.”

BoxingInsider: Is he at his best the greatest fighting machine of the ring you ever saw?

Kevin Rooney: ”Yes. I believe that and I stand by that. He was. Because he was elusive. The best thing about it was these guys couldn’t hit him. When you can’t hit somebody, that becomes very frustrating. In boxing, I’m trying to hit you, you’re moving your head and I can’t hit you. And I’m like, what the ****. That’s what happened in a lot of Mike’s fights. They couldn’t hit him. And I could see then, Mike, this guy’s ready to go, get rid of him. He don’t want to hang around no more. And why? Because I could see the frustration in their face. They throw punches and they can’t hit him. Wait. When I throw these punches against Tom Dick I hit him. I throw ‘em against this guy, I can’t hit him [smiles]. That was Cus’ style. Mike could have been 100-0 and made a billion dollars, if he stayed with me.”

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Old 03-16-2013, 04:53 PM   #125
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

Think Rooney was drunk during the last interview. He punched hard, super hard. Harder than Foreman & Shavers combined hard.

He seemed more even-keeled and astute in the Azzer's quote. I suspect the last one was an interview which came fairly recently where Rooney has been living more off the glory days and has become less grounded in his perspective.

In the HBO unreleased documentary Rooney talks about how it would be a tough fight and basically said what Azzer's quote outlined. So it's not suspect.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:08 AM   #126
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

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He would absolutely get into Tyson`s head. Do you think that Ali would be intimidated by Tyson ??? Ali was great at getting into everone`s head. And, I feel that tyson, while being a great fighter, was weak mentallly. And Ali would exploit it...Movesr are one thing, but you act like Ali would try to survive Tyson. Ali of `67` would take it to Tyson using his superior speed,jabe and footwork. Shit, if `Quick` Tillis gives him problems, how do you expect him to deal with a superior Ali ?
Ali's not Superman for ****'s sake! And you don't win the title at age 20, unify the belts, make 9 defenses and obliterate the division by being weak mentally. Using Tillis as a barometer is rather silly since Tyson fought him in his first year as a professional. Did Tyson not win at least 8 rounds? And to say he struggled against Green, Smith and Tucker because he didn't knock them out is laughable. He lost 2 rounds out of a combined 36. That's pretty dominant right there, wouldn't you say?

If Henry Cooper came seconds away from stopping Ali with one left hook imagine what Tyson would do to him.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:25 AM   #127
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

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Originally Posted by Azzer85 View Post
Cant believe nobody commented on my post
Funny that Patterson still called him Clay.
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:16 AM   #128
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Think Rooney was drunk during the last interview. He punched hard, super hard. Harder than Foreman & Shavers combined hard.

He seemed more even-keeled and astute in the Azzer's quote. I suspect the last one was an interview which came fairly recently where Rooney has been living more off the glory days and has become less grounded in his perspective.

In the HBO unreleased documentary Rooney talks about how it would be a tough fight and basically said what Azzer's quote outlined. So it's not suspect.
You stupid ****s have no reading comprehension at all.

And you need to watch that documentary again.
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:56 AM   #129
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

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Funny that Patterson still called him Clay.
Patterson deserved his beating
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:58 AM   #130
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

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Originally Posted by KidDynamite View Post
I'm doubting the authenticity of that post
Ive given the reference of where i got my quote from, you can look it up if you doubt the authenticity
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:00 AM   #131
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

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Originally Posted by Sangria View Post
Ali's not Superman for ****'s sake! And you don't win the title at age 20, unify the belts, make 9 defenses and obliterate the division by being weak mentally. Using Tillis as a barometer is rather silly since Tyson fought him in his first year as a professional. Did Tyson not win at least 8 rounds? And to say he struggled against Green, Smith and Tucker because he didn't knock them out is laughable. He lost 2 rounds out of a combined 36. That's pretty dominant right there, wouldn't you say?

If Henry Cooper came seconds away from stopping Ali with one left hook imagine what Tyson would do to him.
Not Superman ?/ Wake up !! Tyson had problems with the aforementined fighters, while he WAS champ, prime Tyson ! Clay/ Cooper ? Old news before he became champ, (like Tyson/Tillis champ. I love Tyson, but when the going gets tough, he finds ways to quit. How blind are you ??Ali lost 3 `/2 years of his prime and came back missing some of his amazing gifts and beats the unbeatable George Foreman, and thats not amazing ? Wake up, Smith gave him some problems just by holding for shits sake and Tucker DID have some good moments. If they had to go to the well in a tough,take no prisoners fight ?? Ali has TWICE the heart and will than Tyson. Not even debateable...

Last edited by Waynegrade; 03-17-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:28 PM   #132
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

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Not Superman ?/ Wake up !! Tyson had problems with the aforementined fighters, while he WAS champ, prime Tyson ! Clay/ Cooper ? Old news before he became champ, (like Tyson/Tillis champ. I love Tyson, but when the going gets tough, he finds ways to quit. How blind are you ??Ali lost 3 `/2 years of his prime and came back missing some of his amazing gifts and beats the unbeatable George Foreman, and thats not amazing ? Wake up, Smith gave him some problems just by holding for shits sake and Tucker DID have some good moments. If they had to go to the well in a tough,take no prisoners fight ?? Ali has TWICE the heart and will than Tyson. Not even debateable...
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:31 PM   #133
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

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Patterson deserved his beating
Indeed, as he still showed some disrespect.

Have you read the Rudy Gonzales book?
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:31 PM   #134
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

Ali by late TKO after a trip to the floor himself. Ali was the original king of mental warfare. He would have the mentally unstable Tyson enraged before and throughout the fight. Tyson would hurt Ali,drop him and try to finish him. Ali will take control though and beat Mike's ass down. Late stoppage win for Ali.l
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:54 PM   #135
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Default Re: 88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

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Indeed, as he still showed some disrespect.

Have you read the Rudy Gonzales book?
Nah never read it, but would love to get a hold of it
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