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Old 03-31-2013, 11:47 PM   #31
Dunks
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by Meow View Post
Why isn't he beating treated as one currently even though he has dominated his whole highly talented division?
ATG fighting at one weight?
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:51 PM   #32
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

No...
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:32 AM   #33
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

Lets wait till the end of his career to evaluate him. That being said, I firmly believe he is P4P #1 right now.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:33 AM   #34
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meow View Post
Why isn't he beating treated as one currently even though he has dominated his whole highly talented division?
How has he dominated his whole division when his best win is an unwell double vision suffering fighter that hadnt fought a top world class opponent for 3 years, who was beaten by the previous champ when prime and when the previous champ was old and past his best. That really is Wards best win.. Kessler who had already been beaten by the previous champ.
Tell me one top undefeated SMW that Ward has beaten?
Tell me one undefeated world champ that Ward has beaten?
Tell me when Ward has been the away fighter in a big fight?

Ward lost the chance when he didnt want to face Bute. Ward didnt dominate the division but it happened around him a bit because all he did was beat past best Kessler and the others did the rest in that Kessler beat Froch, Froch beat Bute, but Ward never fought one of them when undefeated
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:46 AM   #35
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by JMP View Post
I'm talking more in a historical sense. Ward has one of the best resumes out there right now, no denying that, but that's also indicative of a thin crop of talent right now from strawweight to heavyweight.

Ward will reach historical greatness, though. Just needs to keep doing what he has been for another half-decade or so against the best from 168 to 175. Aside from Sergey Kovalev in a year or two, I don't see too many real obstacles out there right now.
If you feel he has one of the best resumes out there it shows how weak the divsion is.
Consider for Froch to win an eliminator to fight Ward, Froch had to beat old, boiled down past best G Johnson to get a chance, where Froch won by Mdec, yet for Sheika to get a shot at Calzaghe he had to fight prime SMW version of G Johnson. That there tells you how the division has dipped.
Thats right you dont see too many obstacles because the divisions seem to have dipped
Tell me one top undefeated SMW that Ward has beaten?
Tell me one undefeated world champ that Ward has beaten?
Tell me when Ward has been the away fighter in a big fight?

Cleverly would be a good test for Ward

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooboys View Post
He has the best resume in super middleweight history! Doesn't mean he would beat the likes of Roy jones in his prime, but still has some great wins!
How do you think he has the best SMW resume?
Calzaghes is far greater


Still nobody can counter this
Can any Ward fans answer the question below?

Calzaghe beat 3 undefeated fighters who had or went on to claim a SMW title.
Questions to the Ward fans and please dont duck the questions below

1. Someone tell me which top undefeated fighters Ward has beaten?
2. Tell me which top undefeated world champs Ward has fought?


Lets read the answers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Try and debate against this

Andre Ward............VS.............Joe Calzaghe
Froch.....................................Kessler (Kessler the better win) (Kessler beat Froch)
Kessler...................................Eubank (Eubank the better win)
Dawson..................................Lacy (Lacy a proven SMW and winner of 5 SMW title fights. Dawson no pedigree at all at SMW) (Lacy the better win)
Abraham.................................Mitchell (Mitchell a 2 time SMW champ who had never been clearly beaten, only lost by debateable SD in Germany to Ottke, had KOd long time SMW champ Liles, beaten a future SMW champ twice, compared to AA who had done nothing at SMW) (Mitchell better win)
Bika.......................................Brewer (Bikas best win became Manfredo, Brewer had beaten H Graham and was a SMW champ) (Brewer the better win) (Bika was a Calzaghe left over at that time and had been out of the ring bar less than a round for a while)
Green.....................................Woodhall (Woodhall a SMW champ, who had beaten a reigning SMW champ, a world rated former champ, a future SMW champ and Branco a world rated SMW who became WBA LHW champ, who at SMW beat R Reid and G Johnson who when old and shot KOd Green) (Woodhall a better win)
Miranda...................................Bika (Bika now a top 5 SMW had drawn with 3 time SMW champ Beyer) (Bika a better win)
Buchanan (?????)......................Sheika (Sheika a better win) (Sheika was coming off a win over G Johnson and was a top 10 SMW at the time)
Camou (?????)..........................Veit (Veit a SMW title holder who had a fair resume, better than at least 2 of the current top 5 SMWs) (Veit a better win)Then include the Reid win and then the other top 10 SMWs and its clear Calzaghe is well ahead. I could have put Mkertchyan ahead of Green, Camou, Miranda, Buchanon

Very clear but nobody will have a sensible answer to say otherwise, it will just be a lame Faileys losing it answer when they cant debate against

Somebody tell me how Ward has done more than that.



Nobody can counter the above or answer the questions. In fact they hide from the questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by LikeFatherNSon View Post
Would a pre-Hopkins Calzaghe be considered a HOF'er?
I doubt it, because the division wasnt known then, yet Calzaghe at that time had a win over a prime fighter who when past his best is Wards best win, and Calzaghe had other wins that were greater than Froch
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrX View Post
his resume is amazing
So you must really rate Calzaghes with undefeated Kessler, Eubank, Mitchell, undefeated Lacy, Brewer, Veit, Woodhall, Reid who were all world rated and had or were SMW champs
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey View Post
If you feel he has one of the best resumes out there it shows how weak the divsion is.
Consider for Froch to win an eliminator to fight Ward, Froch had to beat old, boiled down past best G Johnson to get a chance, where Froch won by Mdec, yet for Sheika to get a shot at Calzaghe he had to fight prime SMW version of G Johnson. That there tells you how the division has dipped.
Thats right you dont see too many obstacles because the divisions seem to have dipped
Tell me one top undefeated SMW that Ward has beaten?
Tell me one undefeated world champ that Ward has beaten?
Tell me when Ward has been the away fighter in a big fight?

Cleverly would be a good test for Ward

How do you think he has the best SMW resume?
Calzaghes is far greater


Still nobody can counter this
Can any Ward fans answer the question below?

Calzaghe beat 3 undefeated fighters who had or went on to claim a SMW title.
Questions to the Ward fans and please dont duck the questions below

1. Someone tell me which top undefeated fighters Ward has beaten?
2. Tell me which top undefeated world champs Ward has fought?


Lets read the answers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Try and debate against this

Andre Ward............VS.............Joe Calzaghe
Froch.....................................Kessler (Kessler the better win) (Kessler beat Froch)
Kessler...................................Eubank (Eubank the better win)
Dawson..................................Lacy (Lacy a proven SMW and winner of 5 SMW title fights. Dawson no pedigree at all at SMW) (Lacy the better win)
Abraham.................................Mitchell (Mitchell a 2 time SMW champ who had never been clearly beaten, only lost by debateable SD in Germany to Ottke, had KOd long time SMW champ Liles, beaten a future SMW champ twice, compared to AA who had done nothing at SMW) (Mitchell better win)
Bika.......................................Brewer (Bikas best win became Manfredo, Brewer had beaten H Graham and was a SMW champ) (Brewer the better win) (Bika was a Calzaghe left over at that time and had been out of the ring bar less than a round for a while)
Green.....................................Woodhall (Woodhall a SMW champ, who had beaten a reigning SMW champ, a world rated former champ, a future SMW champ and Branco a world rated SMW who became WBA LHW champ, who at SMW beat R Reid and G Johnson who when old and shot KOd Green) (Woodhall a better win)
Miranda...................................Bika (Bika now a top 5 SMW had drawn with 3 time SMW champ Beyer) (Bika a better win)
Buchanan (?????)......................Sheika (Sheika a better win) (Sheika was coming off a win over G Johnson and was a top 10 SMW at the time)
Camou (?????)..........................Veit (Veit a SMW title holder who had a fair resume, better than at least 2 of the current top 5 SMWs) (Veit a better win)Then include the Reid win and then the other top 10 SMWs and its clear Calzaghe is well ahead. I could have put Mkertchyan ahead of Green, Camou, Miranda, Buchanon

Very clear but nobody will have a sensible answer to say otherwise, it will just be a lame Faileys losing it answer when they cant debate against

Somebody tell me how Ward has done more than that.



Nobody can counter the above or answer the questions. In fact they hide from the questions



I doubt it, because the division wasnt known then, yet Calzaghe at that time had a win over a prime fighter who when past his best is Wards best win, and Calzaghe had other wins that were greater than Froch

So you must really rate Calzaghes with undefeated Kessler, Eubank, Mitchell, undefeated Lacy, Brewer, Veit, Woodhall, Reid who were all world rated and had or were SMW champs
Kessler yes but Calzaghe had no wins better than Froch.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:23 AM   #37
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by LikeFatherNSon View Post
Kessler yes but Calzaghe had no wins better than Froch.
So you think Froch who at 35 and coming off a Mdec over an old boiled down SMW jouneyman, who was behind before a late KO against Taylor, who many considered lucky against Dirrell, who lost to Kessler coming off a loss when suffering double vision is better than Eubank or Mitchell? I definately think 31 year old Eubank who was faster and more skilled with a far greater resume and experience is a better win.

I am not convinced that Froch who is a slow plodder is better than prime Lacy before he was ruined, who hits every bit as hard, is faster, has a higher workrate, better foot speed and a good chin also. If you look at prime Lacy against Reid and you look at Froch just before winning a world title against a slightly more faded Reid, Lacy looked the better to me.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:27 AM   #38
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by LikeFatherNSon View Post
Kessler yes but Calzaghe had no wins better than Froch.
In terms of where they were in their career at the time the fights happened then I would probably side with you and say Froch is a better win for Ward than any win other than Kessler is for Calzaghe - assuming we're only talking about Super Middleweights - however, I would still bet on the 1998 version of Eubank to have given the 2011 version of Froch a very difficult fight that would be close by the final bell.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:20 AM   #39
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by MAJR View Post
In terms of where they were in their career at the time the fights happened then I would probably side with you and say Froch is a better win for Ward than any win other than Kessler is for Calzaghe - assuming we're only talking about Super Middleweights - however, I would still bet on the 1998 version of Eubank to have given the 2011 version of Froch a very difficult fight that would be close by the final bell.
Completely disagree. Eubank fought Calzaghe on 8 days notice, fresh off the couch. Plus he no longer belonged at super middle. Let's not try to make that win any more than it actually was for Calzaghe.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:26 AM   #40
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

Warddke is not even close to his daddy Ottke level
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:51 AM   #41
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by bailey View Post
So you think Froch who at 35 and coming off a Mdec over an old boiled down SMW jouneyman, who was behind before a late KO against Taylor, who many considered lucky against Dirrell, who lost to Kessler coming off a loss when suffering double vision is better than Eubank or Mitchell? I definately think 31 year old Eubank who was faster and more skilled with a far greater resume and experience is a better win.

I am not convinced that Froch who is a slow plodder is better than prime Lacy before he was ruined, who hits every bit as hard, is faster, has a higher workrate, better foot speed and a good chin also. If you look at prime Lacy against Reid and you look at Froch just before winning a world title against a slightly more faded Reid, Lacy looked the better to me.
To answer your opening question, yes. Byron Mitchell? You got jokes on a Monday morning.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:41 AM   #42
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

Pretty close.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:42 AM   #43
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey View Post
If you feel he has one of the best resumes out there it shows how weak the divsion is.
Consider for Froch to win an eliminator to fight Ward, Froch had to beat old, boiled down past best G Johnson to get a chance, where Froch won by Mdec, yet for Sheika to get a shot at Calzaghe he had to fight prime SMW version of G Johnson. That there tells you how the division has dipped.
Thats right you dont see too many obstacles because the divisions seem to have dipped
Tell me one top undefeated SMW that Ward has beaten?
Tell me one undefeated world champ that Ward has beaten?
Tell me when Ward has been the away fighter in a big fight?

Cleverly would be a good test for Ward

How do you think he has the best SMW resume?
Calzaghes is far greater


Still nobody can counter this
Can any Ward fans answer the question below?

Calzaghe beat 3 undefeated fighters who had or went on to claim a SMW title.
Questions to the Ward fans and please dont duck the questions below

1. Someone tell me which top undefeated fighters Ward has beaten?
2. Tell me which top undefeated world champs Ward has fought?


Lets read the answers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Try and debate against this

Andre Ward............VS.............Joe Calzaghe
Froch.....................................Kessler (Kessler the better win) (Kessler beat Froch)
Kessler...................................Eubank (Eubank the better win)
Dawson..................................Lacy (Lacy a proven SMW and winner of 5 SMW title fights. Dawson no pedigree at all at SMW) (Lacy the better win)
Abraham.................................Mitchell (Mitchell a 2 time SMW champ who had never been clearly beaten, only lost by debateable SD in Germany to Ottke, had KOd long time SMW champ Liles, beaten a future SMW champ twice, compared to AA who had done nothing at SMW) (Mitchell better win)
Bika.......................................Brewer (Bikas best win became Manfredo, Brewer had beaten H Graham and was a SMW champ) (Brewer the better win) (Bika was a Calzaghe left over at that time and had been out of the ring bar less than a round for a while)
Green.....................................Woodhall (Woodhall a SMW champ, who had beaten a reigning SMW champ, a world rated former champ, a future SMW champ and Branco a world rated SMW who became WBA LHW champ, who at SMW beat R Reid and G Johnson who when old and shot KOd Green) (Woodhall a better win)
Miranda...................................Bika (Bika now a top 5 SMW had drawn with 3 time SMW champ Beyer) (Bika a better win)
Buchanan (?????)......................Sheika (Sheika a better win) (Sheika was coming off a win over G Johnson and was a top 10 SMW at the time)
Camou (?????)..........................Veit (Veit a SMW title holder who had a fair resume, better than at least 2 of the current top 5 SMWs) (Veit a better win)Then include the Reid win and then the other top 10 SMWs and its clear Calzaghe is well ahead. I could have put Mkertchyan ahead of Green, Camou, Miranda, Buchanon

Very clear but nobody will have a sensible answer to say otherwise, it will just be a lame Faileys losing it answer when they cant debate against

Somebody tell me how Ward has done more than that.



Nobody can counter the above or answer the questions. In fact they hide from the questions



I doubt it, because the division wasnt known then, yet Calzaghe at that time had a win over a prime fighter who when past his best is Wards best win, and Calzaghe had other wins that were greater than Froch

So you must really rate Calzaghes with undefeated Kessler, Eubank, Mitchell, undefeated Lacy, Brewer, Veit, Woodhall, Reid who were all world rated and had or were SMW champs
Your weird obsession has consumed your life.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:34 AM   #44
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by LikeFatherNSon View Post
Completely disagree. Eubank fought Calzaghe on 8 days notice, fresh off the couch. Plus he no longer belonged at super middle. Let's not try to make that win any more than it actually was for Calzaghe.
What? You disagree that Eubank was a tough SOB even in his old age? That taking a fight at 8th days notice at a weight he wasn't training to fight at anymore but still giving the younger and very talented Calzaghe a very difficult fight is not an example of how tough an opponent he could still be at that time? That going life and death a hard-punching world champion from two weight divisions higher in two fights and only losing by a close decision in the first and injury in the second is not proof that he still had some left in the tank?

I didn't say 1998-Eubank was a better win for Calzaghe than 2011-Froch was for Ward, and I have never said it. Froch was closer to his prime against Ward than Eubank was against Calzaghe, Froch was in much better form heading into his fight with Ward than Eubank was against Calzaghe. Thus, in terms of where they were in their respective careers at the time 2011-Froch is a scalp that rates better than 1998-Eubank.

And I did not say 1998-Eubank would beat 2011-Froch, I said 1998-Eubank would make it a bloody difficult fight for 2011-Froch, just as 1998-Eubank made his fight with Calzaghe and two fights with Thompson bloody difficult.

I'm not trying to make 1998-Eubank out to be an elite fighter but only a fool or someone with an agenda would try to claim that he wasn't still one tough SOB who could give world-level fighters close and difficult fights.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:40 AM   #45
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by Meow View Post
Why isn't he beating treated as one currently even though he has dominated his whole highly talented division?

So was Donald Curry.
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