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View Poll Results: Does Ali/Ali's corners blatant use of banned substances to recover damage his legacy?
Yes 5 22.73%
No 17 77.27%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-05-2013, 07:17 PM   #31
MagnaNasakki
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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Yeah. Journeymen don't usually plant Ali on his ass, do they?
I've made a career lately of beating the crap out of journeymen.

They certainly don't plant Muhammad Ali on his ass. Or challenge for world titles. Or defeat world title challengers by wide decisions.

They trouble prospects, give the hot prospects some rounds, test old guys to see if they still have anything left...But mostly, they travel around to get defeated. That is, primarily, how a journeyman boxer makes a living. There is no money in being an above average fighter with no future at the world level who wins. There is serious bank in being said fighter and fighting guys with serious promise or world class skills.

Journeyman can sometimes squeeze something like that one time, for a glorious beating and a ton of money, but Henry was around the top for a long time.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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Okay, I gave you Bradley-Provodnikov just this last weekend.

Gatti-Ward, many rounds in both fights are examples of badly hurt men fighting back with a tremendous amount of success(Gatti dominates round 10 of the first fight after suffering perhaps the worst round a boxer can suffer and survive in the ninth).

Corrales gets dropped twice, has no legs, and can't see, and knocks out Castillo by basically swinging for the fences.

Holyfield fought back against Bowe despite being badly stunned and wobbled. Bowe did the same the round after being victimized prison style by Golota in their rematch.

Lamon Brewster fought back strong in the 10th round of his fight with Liakhovich, despite being badly, badly hurt in the ninth(concussed, as he later confirmed).

Sugar Ray Robinson was in tremendous trouble against Giardello, being heavily dropped, appearing shaky and unfocused, and being clearly saved by the bell in the the sixth round, and he came back to dominate the seventh.

There are more.
Alright, I admit completely that a fighter who is partially unconscious can fight back in a fight and have a chance to win through a lot willpower and determination which Ali could have definitely done.

However, the main purpose of this thread is not whether Ali would have lost but whether it delegitmizes him since he had to use PEDs to win a fight.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:20 PM   #33
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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There's countless examples, guys who've boxed will know what I'm talking about, you can be semi conscious and keep fighting. Plenty of fighters lose their faculties and their legs and come back and win.

But if you want an example Ray Leonard said he didn't know where he was for rounds after the second against Duran

Clay had 60 seconds to recover from a punch he already got up from. He wasn't going to have much trouble surviving after a 65 seconds break.



Smelling salts aren't PEDs, Anyway what's the difference between 1 form of cheating and another?

Ali used PEDs well past his prime though but anyway only people who never take exercise seriously worry about PEDs anyway
I've beaten so many guys who've tested positive afterwards. No substitute for knowing how to box.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:20 PM   #34
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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There's countless examples, guys who've boxed will know what I'm talking about, you can be semi conscious and keep fighting. Plenty of fighters lose their faculties and their legs and come back and win.

But if you want an example Ray Leonard said he didn't know where he was for rounds after the second against Duran

Clay had 60 seconds to recover from a punch he already got up from. He wasn't going to have much trouble surviving after a 65 seconds break.



Smelling salts aren't PEDs, Anyway what's the difference between 1 form of cheating and another?

Ali used PEDs well past his prime though but anyway only people who never take exercise seriously worry about PEDs anyway
Smelling salts are a PED. It enhanced Ali's performance against Cooper, simple as that.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:21 PM   #35
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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Smelling salts are a PED. It enhanced Ali's performance against Cooper, simple as that.
So is a cup of coffee in that case
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:22 PM   #36
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So is a cup of coffee in that case
This was much more drastic.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:24 PM   #37
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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This was much more drastic.
Espresso?
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:26 PM   #38
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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Smelling salts are a PED. It enhanced Ali's performance against Cooper, simple as that.
I agree if they were illegal at the time of the fight, then yes it should have been called a no contest, wether Ali would have survived or not!
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:32 PM   #39
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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I agree if they were illegal at the time of the fight, then yes it should have been called a no contest, wether Ali would have survived or not!
A no contest or a DQ loss. A DQ loss in my view though.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:43 PM   #40
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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A no contest or a DQ loss. A DQ loss in my view though.
Whatever you like sir. Mike Tyson's fight against Orlin Norris was a no contest and should have been a disqualification loss, don't you agree??
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:57 PM   #41
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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Whatever you like sir. Mike Tyson's fight against Orlin Norris was a no contest and should have been a disqualification loss, don't you agree??
Explain the circumstances, remember I'm trying to talk about PEDs not accidental headbutts fouls etc.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:06 PM   #42
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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Explain the circumstances, remember I'm trying to talk about PEDs not accidental headbutts fouls etc.
It's the same thing, trying to gain an unfair advantage by fouling!
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:09 PM   #43
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

HEY ASSHOLE!!!! DO YOU THINK WE'RE DUMB?? WHO YOU TRYING TO FOOL???

That's clearly Cassius Clay, not Ali
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:11 PM   #44
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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Espresso?
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:13 PM   #45
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and PEDs

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It's the same thing, trying to gain an unfair advantage by fouling!
If it was intentional then it should be a DQ loss but if it was accidental than a NC.
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