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Old 04-07-2013, 04:56 AM   #16
lufcrazy
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

I dint think he meant lw Joe Gans, maybe some of the others who came after like Italian Joe Gans.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Jack Johnson was a con artist who is not to be taken too seriously as an
unbiased boxing observer.For EXAMPLE his article above states "once during his [Dempsey's] training, I saw JOE GANS make him [Dempsey] look ridiculous ",Unquote....The only problem with this Jack Johnson nonsense is that the LW Joe Gans DIED in 1910 from tuberculosis, years before Dempsey turned pro......Maybe Johnson was refering to the ghost of Joe Gans....?

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Old 04-07-2013, 01:22 PM   #18
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

I think that, sometimes, we give too much importance to what fighters say without consider their emotions when they say it. Johnson was bitter, like many other fighters when they retire.
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

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the modest Negro ex-heavywelght champion
first-rate journalism, imo
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
I dint think he meant lw Joe Gans, maybe some of the others who came after like Italian Joe Gans.
I'm guessing the Joe Gans that Johnson was talking about was the one pictured far right here - Johnson name dropped him quite naturally so I'm guessing most people back in the day knew which Gans he was referring to - so I'm guessing this Gans was a known name on the circuit and I would assume by how Johnson describes it someone who really knew how to handle himself

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Old 04-07-2013, 04:15 PM   #21
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

Don't think this article changed the way I view Dempsey at all if I'm being honest.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:15 PM   #22
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

Dempsey sure as hell bedevils both voices of the past, like Johnson as well as the flummoxed of today that can't deal with him.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:48 PM   #23
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

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Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post
I'm guessing the Joe Gans that Johnson was talking about was the one pictured far right here - Johnson name dropped him quite naturally so I'm guessing most people back in the day knew which Gans he was referring to - so I'm guessing this Gans was a known name on the circuit and I would assume by how Johnson describes it someone who really knew how to handle himself

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rocky I think I have the man on the right as Panama Joe Gans, born in Barbados in 1896, and not to be confused with Italian Joe Gans ,born in Italy in 1891,who was a MW also ar 5ft3". As a young boy i shook hands with Italian Joe Gans who worked at Feltman's in Coney Island in the late 1940s...Italian Joie Gans fought Soldier Bartfield a few times in the 1920s.
So Jack Johnson must have meant "Panama" Joe Gans who sparred with Jack Dempsey in the photo above...
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
This B.S. propaganda that Jack Dempsey did not fight the TOP black FIGHTERS [plural] in his title reign has to be rebutted time and again....The ONLY viable black heavyweight threat during the early 1920s, before Dempsey went Hollywood, was Harry Wills who even then was in his early 30s...Though they did sign with a Michigan promotor...Sam McVea, Sam Langford, Jack Johnson, Joe Jeannette were pushing 40 by then and were retired....So let's be real ... Would Dempsey fight the above black fighters were they in their 20s and active is purely hypothetical....But
until I started on the internet the only black viable heavyweight Dempsey
did not fight was the DESERVING Harry Wills, and acknowleged by the boxing writers of those times....There is no fighter on ESB that get's
such a lacing from some posters that the Manassa Mauler gets...
Too darn bad giving the shaft to a beloved figure that Dempsey was for
over 50 long years...Shame...,
Whether you think him deserving of a title shot or not, Sam Langford most certainly was not retired when Dempsey was champ. He beat Fireman Flynn multiple times whiel Dempsey was champion and was more active than Dempsey during the span while Dempsey was busy doing everything but being heavyweight champ.

In fact, Lanford fought 22 times during the period of time when Dempsey did not so much as set his toe in the ring while he was champ. That's quite a workload for a retired guy.

I'm not saying he could have beaten Dempsey -- we'll never know, sadly, but to try to twist history and say Langford was retired is just flat-out not true.

It's also worth noting that you can duck top challenges (not challengERS, but challenges) on your way to the title, and Dempsey most certainly did not seek out any bouts with viable, proven black fighters either on his way to the top or after winning the championship.

I'm sure you have addressed it somewhere, but Burt I'd like your take on Dempsey sitting on the championship and refusing to either give it up or defend it while worthy challengers were forced to wait. I think what he did in holding up the title is disgraceful -- you are one of his biggest fans, so I'd like to know how you reconcile this. Would you stand up for other fighters if the put their titles in deep freeze this way?
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:23 PM   #25
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

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Whether you think him deserving of a title shot or not, Sam Langford most certainly was not retired when Dempsey was champ. He beat Fireman Flynn multiple times whiel Dempsey was champion and was more active than Dempsey during the span while Dempsey was busy doing everything but being heavyweight champ.

In fact, Lanford fought 22 times during the period of time when Dempsey did not so much as set his toe in the ring while he was champ. That's quite a workload for a retired guy.

I'm not saying he could have beaten Dempsey -- we'll never know, sadly, but to try to twist history and say Langford was retired is just flat-out not true.

It's also worth noting that you can duck top challenges (not challengERS, but challenges) on your way to the title, and Dempsey most certainly did not seek out any bouts with viable, proven black fighters either on his way to the top or after winning the championship.

I'm sure you have addressed it somewhere, but Burt I'd like your take on Dempsey sitting on the championship and refusing to either give it up or defend it while worthy challengers were forced to wait. I think what he did in holding up the title is disgraceful -- you are one of his biggest fans, so I'd like to know how you reconcile this. Would you stand up for other fighters if the put their titles in deep freeze this way?
SP, GOOD post on your part...I meant to post "for the MOST part the top black fighters were retired except Harry Wills and the 38 year old Sam Langford....SP when I defend Jack Dempsey I do it on the fact that in his prime I believe he would be more than a handful against every heavyweight ever, because aside from his going Hollywood,and living the good life screwing the silent screen sirens, Dempsey because of his power, speed and toughness was a force to be reckoned with against anyone...
We must understand that Dempsey left home in his teens, rode the undercarriage of railroads,to avoid detection from the RR detectives, fought from town to town in bars winner takes all, finally in a stroke of good fortune meets Jack Kearns who feeds him and trains Dempsey to the Championship , fame and fortune and La Dolce Vita...Is it any wonder that Dempsey finally in the money after years of struggling ,says to himself "now I'm going to give in to my desires ,go to Hollywood while I'm on top,
screw the most beautiful chicks of the silent screen era , for I deserve to enjoy myself after years of depriving myself as a hobo youngster ". Who can blame Dempsey ? He was NOT thinking of posterity and ESB 90 years later...Of course not. In Hollywood he got married, fired his manager Jack Kearns because Dempsey claimed Kearns stole his money, divorced his wife, tried to recoup his money by launching a "comeback" after 3 years out of the ring, against a prime Gene Tunney,WITHOUT ONE TUNE-UP fight...
A recipe for disaster at age of 32...
Do I think Dempsey should have not gone Hollywood,and fought from 1923 to 1926 the top contender {Harry Wills] ? Your darn right, though they DID sign...Do I think that Jack Dempsey fought the calibre of opposition that Ali fought in his reign ? HELL NO!...Ali because of his times 1970s, fought
the best contenders [with exceptions of course] than any HW champion.
So SP ,I try to put myself in Dempsey position and his times, and though it would be great today to read about his fighting straight through 1919-1923
he followed his desire to live the good life after 1923...I can't blame him
knowing his hobo past coming up...
Summing up SP. I believe that though he didn't fight the calibre opponents of Ali, Dempsey mano to mano ,in his prime would be a TOUGH guy to handle in a ring, for ANYONE and the veteran fighters as Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Ray Arcel, Whitey Bimstein, Lou Stillman, Damon Runyon etc, who saw Dempsey in his prime and had him #1, KNEW what they were talking about...Cheers.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

Jack Johnson was the "back in my day" types. That being said, I do think he was better than Dempsey.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
SP, GOOD post on your part...I meant to post "for the MOST part the top black fighters were retired except Harry Wills and the 38 year old Sam Langford....SP when I defend Jack Dempsey I do it on the fact that in his prime I believe he would be more than a handful against every heavyweight ever, because aside from his going Hollywood,and living the good life screwing the silent screen sirens, Dempsey because of his power, speed and toughness was a force to be reckoned with against anyone...
We must understand that Dempsey left home in his teens, rode the undercarriage of railroads,to avoid detection from the RR detectives, fought from town to town in bars winner takes all, finally in a stroke of good fortune meets Jack Kearns who feeds him and trains Dempsey to the Championship , fame and fortune and La Dolce Vita...Is it any wonder that Dempsey finally in the money after years of struggling ,says to himself "now I'm going to give in to my desires ,go to Hollywood while I'm on top,
screw the most beautiful chicks of the silent screen era , for I deserve to enjoy myself after years of depriving myself as a hobo youngster ". Who can blame Dempsey ? He was NOT thinking of posterity and ESB 90 years later...Of course not. In Hollywood he got married, fired his manager Jack Kearns because Dempsey claimed Kearns stole his money, divorced his wife, tried to recoup his money by launching a "comeback" after 3 years out of the ring, against a prime Gene Tunney,WITHOUT ONE TUNE-UP fight...
A recipe for disaster at age of 32...
Do I think Dempsey should have not gone Hollywood,and fought from 1923 to 1926 the top contender {Harry Wills] ? Your darn right, though they DID sign...Do I think that Jack Dempsey fought the calibre of opposition that Ali fought in his reign ? HELL NO!...Ali because of his times 1970s, fought
the best contenders [with exceptions of course] than any HW champion.
So SP ,I try to put myself in Dempsey position and his times, and though it would be great today to read about his fighting straight through 1919-1923
he followed his desire to live the good life after 1923...I can't blame him
knowing his hobo past coming up...
Summing up SP. I believe that though he didn't fight the calibre opponents of Ali, Dempsey mano to mano ,in his prime would be a TOUGH guy to handle in a ring, for ANYONE and the veteran fighters as Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Ray Arcel, Whitey Bimstein, Lou Stillman, Damon Runyon etc, who saw Dempsey in his prime and had him #1, KNEW what they were talking about...Cheers.
Great post burt . You've got great knowledge on the old time fighters how old are you if you dont mind me asking ? How do you think dempsey vs marciano would of gone ?
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:02 PM   #28
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

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Great post burt . You've got great knowledge on the old time fighters how old are you if you dont mind me asking ? How do you think dempsey vs marciano would of gone ?
D, I am so old that my blood type has been discontinued ! I don't like to jinx myself, but my dad took me to see my first pro card in 1942, Beau Jack against Terry Young at old ST Nick's Arena NY. I shook the hand of Ray Robinson BEFORE he turned pro in 1940 at the Golden Gloves bouts in the Bway Arena. So d, let's say Ive been around the block...
As far as Dempsey/Marciano who I saw almost kill Carmine Vingo in 1949, I have posted my opinion before...I cannot see Marciano tough as he was,
NOT being ko'd by Jack Dempsey, both in their primes...Marciano who I loved missed half his punches, and against a Dempsey who hit as hard and with both hands, much more accurateley, and twice as fast as Rocky, and
whoever Dempsey hurts he ko's...A Joe Louis in his Max Baer days would stop Marciano surely IMO...take care...
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:09 PM   #29
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

Burts position is simple, jack went from a hobo to a superstar and took the opportunity to make easy money and bang the film stars of the day, a choice most sane men would make.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:31 PM   #30
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Default Re: Johnson on Dempsey-nice titbits here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
D, I am so old that my blood type has been discontinued ! I don't like to jinx myself, but my dad took me to see my first pro card in 1942, Beau Jack against Terry Young at old ST Nick's Arena NY. I shook the hand of Ray Robinson BEFORE he turned pro in 1940 at the Golden Gloves bouts in the Bway Arena. So d, let's say Ive been around the block...
As far as Dempsey/Marciano who I saw almost kill Carmine Vingo in 1949, I have posted my opinion before...I cannot see Marciano tough as he was,
NOT being ko'd by Jack Dempsey, both in their primes...Marciano who I loved missed half his punches, and against a Dempsey who hit as hard and with both hands, much more accurateley, and twice as fast as Rocky, and
whoever Dempsey hurts he ko's...A Joe Louis in his Max Baer days would stop Marciano surely IMO...take care...
Thanks for the reply ive noticed jack gets alot of flack on esb good to see posts from someone who knows alot from the old time fighters . Must of been great meeting sugar ray did you see any of his pro fights live alot of his fight films from his welterweight period are missing or were destroyed by fire if im not mistaken
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