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Old 04-08-2013, 03:19 PM   #331
dempsey1234
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Without getting away from the main part of the thread the last story about opportunity.Fighters to a man even one of the all time best MW's only get so many chances if you are not a big ticket seller,talker or even connected the road to glory can be long & arduos expect & get no favours.

You are 28 years old boast a record of 49-2-2 you have fought some of the best your weight class offers in 2013 you would no doubt have held a MW version of the title.Yet you are almost at the last chance saloon you know you have been avoided the pressure is on & you know in the back of your mind you must win by stoppage,no scorecards you have been down that road before.

This is 1980 Marvin Hagler knows this is his last real opportunity he has made himself mandatory challenger to Alan Minter away from home at Wembley Arena London.Minter is also confident he had beaten Vito Antuofermo.Hagler had drawn with Antuofermo 10 months prior to the Minter fight he should of won clearly.But he knows sometimes when you leave it in the judges hands it doesn't fall your way.

Years earlier he had experienced it at the Spectrum in Philly.The fights he had there were the dubbed the Philly wars the atmosphere & fan reaction would stand him in good stead at Wembley he drew on all those experiences & more.

The build up to the fight Minter makes a comment that goes national on tv & radio a comment that he retracts afterwards Hagler will not win his title not based on ability but how he looks.Hagler after accepts the apology.

The day of the fight Minter was the slight favourite 4/5 against Hagler at even money something had even gone wrong in the last few days of Hagler's preparation he weighs in 1/2 pound over.The weight is shifted very quickly part of the mind games maybe?When did he struggle to make weight before or after?He never did a true profesional.

The fight is a three round war both fighting from the southpaw stance Minter a fighter that was known for coming on strong in the second half of fights decides to try & push the pace.Hagler slips leads & punishes Minter opening cuts around his eyes.The fight goes the same length as the famous fight years later against Hearns three rounds this one in many ways more important.

The third round & it's all over Hagler's celebrations are cut short as bottles are cascading into the ring his managers & entourage protect him back to the dressing room.
He goes from being in the last chance saloon to being undisputed MW champion from 1980-87.

The $50 dollar debut purse dewarfed by the estimated $11-12m dollar purse he recieved for fighting SRL.Every cent earned the boy from Brockton had made good.
Keep 'em coming, yes sir!
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:58 PM   #332
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A managers job:
"My job is to call them and tell them that's what [Top Rank] wants to do and let them hash it over," Cameron Dunkin said.
Top Rank offered Mikey Garcia a fight with Juanma Lopez in Puerto Rico, Lopez is Puerto Rican. A manager should have some input in the decision making process, especially in this fight the location can make a difference, and not where most people would think. The officials are for the most part brought in and both fighters camps have a say over who the judges and referee are. The judges and ref might be the most honest officials there are but the real culprit will appear in the form of the crowd, their cheering and or hostility towards the visitor will be felt and that is where things can go wrong and as sometimes happens influences a decision.
The manager should try to get the fight moved if he hasnt done that already since he is the champ(Mikey Garcia). My take is that while Garcia is the champ, he is the "B" side, he has no real ability to put asses in the seats, Juanma is the "A" side, he can put asses in seats , especially in Puerto Rico. Top Rank is looking to make the most money possible for themselves and the fighters so from a business POV its on solid ground.
To me it's wise to get everybody's take on the fight, but at the end of the day the manager has to do his job and that is to protect the fighter. Trainer's who are both family members and trainers may have different agendas the manager has to look at it with cold eyes.
The manager's agenda is to get the best deal possible, including re-match clauses if possible and maybe thats the case here. My belief is too many cooks may spoil the stew if the manager lets it get out of hand.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:46 PM   #333
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A managers job:
"My job is to call them and tell them that's what [Top Rank] wants to do and let them hash it over," Cameron Dunkin said.
Top Rank offered Mikey Garcia a fight with Juanma Lopez in Puerto Rico, Lopez is Puerto Rican. A manager should have some input in the decision making process, especially in this fight the location can make a difference, and not where most people would think. The officials are for the most part brought in and both fighters camps have a say over who the judges and referee are. The judges and ref might be the most honest officials there are but the real culprit will appear in the form of the crowd, their cheering and or hostility towards the visitor will be felt and that is where things can go wrong and as sometimes happens influences a decision.
The manager should try to get the fight moved if he hasnt done that already since he is the champ(Mikey Garcia). My take is that while Garcia is the champ, he is the "B" side, he has no real ability to put asses in the seats, Juanma is the "A" side, he can put asses in seats , especially in Puerto Rico. Top Rank is looking to make the most money possible for themselves and the fighters so from a business POV its on solid ground.
To me it's wise to get everybody's take on the fight, but at the end of the day the manager has to do his job and that is to protect the fighter. Trainer's who are both family members and trainers may have different agendas the manager has to look at it with cold eyes.
The manager's agenda is to get the best deal possible, including re-match clauses if possible and maybe thats the case here. My belief is too many cooks may spoil the stew if the manager lets it get out of hand.
Great insightful post dempsey at many levels as the away fighter you really are 2-3 rounds down from the get go crowd reaction to punches landed or not do sway the judges.
We had a fight here that any uk based fan will back me up on was a total & utter disgrace to the point Stevie Wonder would have seen how to call it.Worst decision i have ever seen here in the uk by a margin Cox v Sai the african kid won at least 9 of the 12 rounds.Got jobbed was totally outboxing Cox who just threw low blows the ref 'constantly' missed it BS.
The thing that made it worse it was a hotel black suit & tie show ringside 'fans' more interested in the food & wine than the fight.So no fan reaction was Mr.W last sky show the sky panel were disgusted also.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:52 PM   #334
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Thought I would comment on this more road apples by promoters this time it's the Goldenones,

"Golden Boy Promotions CEO Richard Schaefer feels bad for former champion Nonito Donaire."
WHY DOES HE FEEL BAD, NONITO EVEN LOSING IS STILL MORE VALUEABLE THEN RIGONDEAUX AND MARES PUT TOGETHER. NONITO MADE 1.3 MILLION FOR THIS FIGHT AND A MILLION FOR HIS LAST FIGHT. NONITO MADE MORE IN DONAIRE'S LAST TWO FIGHTS FIGHT THEN BOTH RIGONDEAUX AND MARES MADE IN THE THEIR WHOLE CAREERS. THE ONES SCHAEFFER SHOULD FEEL SORRY FOR IS HIS FIGHTERS WHO COLLECT DUST AND ARE PAID NOWHERE NEAR WHAT TOP RANK PAYS.
THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A PROMOTER CRYING CROCODILE TEARS COS HE FEELS SORRY COS HE CAN'T GET FIGHTS FOR HIS GUYS. SHAEFFER SHOULD REALIZE HE DOESN'T HAVE THE "A" SIDE, HE HAS A "B" GUY, SO WHY SHOULD ARUM BOW DOWN TO HIS ROAD APPLE DEALS.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:42 PM   #335
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Some managerial advice I have learned over the years, probably the most significant indicator of a successful fighter is that he has a tight team behind him. The fighter with the closer crew and a team that compliments each other and work well as a team I have seen have a greater chance at success.
Alot of times things get in the way, like ego's, agenda's, and drama's. They can be and is very disruptive to a fighter.
How many good fighters have you seen not go as far as you thought? You might have thought this guy is a future champ only to see him a year or so later a "coulda' been". You would be surprised at how much it actually happens and in alot of cases it's sad. So kids the morale of this is try to put together a team that is a team, with no superstars, let the kid be the the star.
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:38 AM   #336
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I believe it comes down to clearly defined roles too many people involved with boxers rather than sticking to the role that they know try & cross into areas that they are not best suited.It muddies the waters everyone being an expert on everything to the hindrance of the fighter.
The final instructions given to a fighter-'protect yourself at all times'.
You should also apply those words to outside the ring as in it because if those that are said to be behind you arn't you are going to have to be a hell of a strong character/fighter to succeed.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:32 PM   #337
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Whats a manager or promoter to do? Rigondeaux won, now what? The manager seemed to think he made a good deal, beating Donaire means an up in pay, Rigo now wants Donaire pay. The promoter now has it's work cut out him, he has ONLY to find the media outlet to pay for the fight, and the revenue stream to pay the large purse Rigo will now demand and then for the really good part, find somebody willing to fight Rigo for that low pay. You may ask why doesn't the promoter pay the opponent more money? Well, it's simple there is little money left to pay the opponent after Rigo takes his. Now after the glow of the win over Donaire fades into time, what is a manager to do? He has a p4p, with hof skills and nobody cares if they ever see him in a ring again. Guy's this is a sport where excitement rules, you have to give the fan's what they want to see, action. Believe me no matter how pretty those moves are, the fast hands and quick feet, fergitboutit, it dont mean poop, to the fans. Go to any fight, anywhere and ck out the crowds response to the action and what brings them to their feet? I will bet you anything that the crowd aren't getting excited about somebody's great defensive and skillful moves. Guys if you want to make money, make people want to see you. Boxing is a great sport but it's also a business.
Hope you guys out there dont mind my commenting on things from a managers/boxing guys POV.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:41 PM   #338
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Rigondeaux will have to be realistic Donaire gets $1.32 m for saturday night because he is the draw.Rigo IMO has done well to get a purse of $750k yes he won but regardless of the result he must realise he got it not because of his undoubted skills but the oppt.His manager secured him top money for what he brings he has no fanbase at the live gate period.

Top Rank know what they have in Donaire a draw that he lost saturday not by any means at this stage a big problem in his career he moves up to 126lbs there are decent $ fights for him.Large,loyal fanbase at the gate & PPV.

Rigo looks a natural 122lbs maybe in the next year he conditions himself to go up to 126lbs & from Top Ranks view would they want him in with Donaire again doubt it!If they were to do it again Donaire would STILL get the lions share whoever holds whatever belt at whatever weight.Like it or not Rigo is still the hunter not the hunted the law of the jungle is the $.To a lesser extent say he moves up to fight Mikey Garcia he again is the one chasing the fight.The numbers don't lie reporters at ringside don't pay the $ the fans do tech off the chart,edge of seat not for me.

Fighters natural ability undoubted Top Rank or any promotion are working off the gate,viewing figures.advertising & marketability it is a business first & foremost.We fans may not like it but in ALL pro sports if it makes money it makes sense.
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Old 04-20-2013, 04:15 AM   #339
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Going forward we'll see more excitement out of Rigondeaux. Remember that he had to do what he did to beat Donaire. He was never going to win a slugfest with Donaire, so it's a little unfair to say he isn't exciting. He did what he had to do (what ANYONE had to do) to win, and now it's on to bigger and better things. You're basically asking a guy to either win the fight by making it into a boring chessmatch, or lose the fight by taking it to the bigger, more powerful counterpuncher. It's not a tough choice. And he probably expected Donaire to bring the fight a little harder. If Rigo had gone in hard then he would have got knocked out and be in an even worse situation now.

His problem isn't his style, it's the fact that he doesn't have an ethnic fanbase that will watch him even if he fights like a zombie like Donaire did. How many popular lower-weight fighters aren't Filipino or Mexican? Most likely they'll put him in with a couple guys he can blow through on some undercards of bigger fights. Rigondeaux can be exciting, but there are times when you just have to get the W and live to be exciting another day.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:07 AM   #340
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We go back to the 20's in USA everyone is trying to make money quick gold prospecting,prohibition,prostitution & gambling.Legal or illegal $ the thing everyone wanted to make & quick.
Jack Dempsey transcended sport kids pretended to be him,men wanted to fight like him,women wanted to be with him.He had travelled a long way from being a guy in his early days disliked for being labelled a draft dodger the most famous sportman of all would suffer similar many years later & be all of the above history does have a way of repeating itself.
The town of Shelby population of 2,000 had done well there was oil discovered in North Montana so there was money & the local mayor, officials & businessmen Eddie Kane manager of Tommy Gibbons wanted to make more.Easy lets build a stadium get Dempsey & stage a world title fight that will have people coming from far & wide he draws,he makes money so will we.Easy money we have no real experience but easy money everyone makes on Dempsey.........

Doc Kearns is contacted a fight in Shelby sure no problem Tommy Gibbons the oppt. set for the 4th July 1923.To get Dempsey you have to pay & pay well.The mayor & Eddie Kane (Gibbons manager) are taken by suprise $310k for Dempsey well Gibbons will fight for free if he has to says Kane he does in the end.
Here is the deal Kearns wants all the money paid before Dempsey sets in the ring he knows there is not even a decent size arena it has to be built.
For the fight to go ahead $100k NOW,$100k in a month & $110k before he steps in the ring widely reported as $300k total the purse was actually set for $310k.

50,000 stadium is built tickets set for $50 ringside watch the money roll in the mayor has hocked everything to make the fight go ahead the first payment fine,struggled with the second & made the four banks of Shelby front the money if the $ not paid the fight is called off no money to be returned.Everyone is getting nervous Kearns contacted maybe the figures can be tweaked a little...no $310k or no fight money ALL in advance rumours spread quickly this fight may not go ahead ticket sales are poor,trains that were to bring fans in cancelled the rail company gets wind the fight may not be made seven times Kearns threatens to call it off.
The people of Shelby are desperate the banks scrape together the balance minus 10k lets hope the gate is as big as we hope it's Dempsey after all there will be a big walk up crowd in the last few days.Kearns a real gent ( THIS IS BUSINESS) allows the 10k balance to be paid after the gate is counted fight on Gibbons who just wants a shot delighted,Dempsey relaxed money secured anyway fight or not he's been paid.

The fight goes ahead 7,702 at the gate pay it is an economical disaster one of the biggest ever 13,000 get let in free the locals can't afford tickets & no one travels in.Four banks go bust the town is on it's knees the mayor,officials & Kane can't believe it.

The fight itself?Almost forgot 15 rounds decision for Dempsey not a great fight like it wasn't a great idea for inexperienced people to dip their business toes in areas they knew nothing about.

Still Gibbons had done well 15 hard rounds with the champ something to tell his grandchildren & take to his grave that he wasn't paid a cent in the end a bone of contention.Well still not eveyone gets in & goes the distance with Dempsey all men would have loved to right?

Shelby never recovers a social & financial disaster.Kearns enquires about the missing $10k it can't be raised.Kearns lets it go 'amatuers we won't be dealing with you again' still the town of Shelby had seen the great fighter Dempsey & a mayor,officials & a manager all out of there depths.......everyone makes money on a name like Dempsey it's easy right?
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:57 PM   #341
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What a story, Making Weight!
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Old 04-25-2013, 03:22 AM   #342
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Hey there. I have a couple of questions. This first one is probably fairly subjective, but I've taken physical measurments of myself: Height: 5ft 11in, Weight(current) 168lbs, Reach: 74.5in Biceps: 12in, Forearm: 10.5in, Wrist:6in Fist 8.5in, Waist: 34in, Chest: 37.5in, Neck: 14.5in, Thigh: 21in, Calf: 15in Ankle: 10in. Stance is Southpaw. About to turn 21. Based on this tale of the tape, do you think I could become a boxer? I know there's more to it then just size, but i'm willing to train myself like a dog, and do whatever it takes. I've been a fan for most of my life, and i want to see if i have potential. I live in Indiana. I know of a couple boxing gyms, but not much else. Any info, and opinions are appreciated.

Last edited by louis3749; 04-29-2013 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:57 PM   #343
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Hey there. I have a couple of questions. This first one is probably fairly subjective, but I've taken physical measurments of myself: Height: 5ft 11in, Weight(current) 168lbs, Reach: 74.5in Biceps: 12in, Forearm: 10.5in, Wrist:6in Fist 8.5in, Waist: 34in, Chest: 37.5in, Neck: 14.5in, Thigh: 21in, Calf: 15in Ankle: 10in. Stance is Southpaw. About to turn 21. Based on this tale of the tape, do you think I could become a boxer? I know there's more to it then just size, but i'm willing to train myself like a dog, and do whatever it takes. I've been a fan for most of my life, and i want to see if i have potential. I live in Indiana. I know of a couple boxing gyms, but not much else. Any info, and opinions are appreciated.
There is a promoter Bobby Hitz he might be able to suggest a gym and give you some advice. He was a heavywt pro a while back. I dont have a number so here is his email [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. Ask Bobby for advice I am sure he will lead you in the right direction. I would tell you to visit the various gym's, just look and listen to whats going on, then ask questions. Dont rush into things try finding a gym first, then when you are ready test the waters by sparring, if that goes well then try a fight that should tell you where you at.
Hope that is helpful good luck.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:05 PM   #344
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How easy is it to build a limited fighter into a title contender? We see guys like Ronald Hearns, Dimitry Salita, etc. get title shots for reasons not necessarily based on their resume or abilities. Can any half decent athlete be developed this way?
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:23 AM   #345
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How easy is it to build a limited fighter into a title contender? We see guys like Ronald Hearns, Dimitry Salita, etc. get title shots for reasons not necessarily based on their resume or abilities. Can any half decent athlete be developed this way?
There is a very limited fighter presently getting that kind of buildup, right now in fact he recently fought the opener on a SHOWTIME show featuring Canelo vs trout. He has three things going for him and boxing ability is not one of them. First he's good looking kid with charisma, second he is Mexican, third he has some pop. Omar Figueroa really is an exception cos unlike Hearns who has a famous father, Salita who is Jewish, which helps sell tickets. There are plenty others in the rankings right now. Think about this they are making a big deal over Wilders win over an old tired guy who shoulda retired long ago Audley Harrison. Wilder has fought no names, not one guy that he has fought has posed even a slight danger to Wilder, why you may ask is he getting the buildup? He has a promoter who is willing to invest in getting just the right guy in there with him. He is an Olympian, and best of all he is a heavywt.
So, the answer is yes, but you have to have something besides your fighting ability.

Here are what is needed to getting a buildup for a limited guy.
-He has to have a promoter who is willing to invest in building up the fighter
-A famous father
-Looks
-Charisma
-Ethnic group
-Punching power
-Marketability

The promoter is the key, somebody had to say to themselves this "limited guy" can make me money for whatever reason.
Hope that answered your question somewhat.

Last edited by dempsey1234; 05-02-2013 at 05:24 AM. Reason: spelling correction
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