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Old 04-07-2008, 02:38 PM   #1
SuzieQ49
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Default Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

I was studying his early career lately and noticed how well protected he was, for his own good on the way up. Ali's management all he way up to liston guided his pro career perfectly, throwing him in against good but not dangerous world class fighters that could potentially upset him. They wanted to bring up young Clay up systematically, They wanted to test his incredible talent vs good fighters but not risk him getting beat or becoming damaged goods. So they threw him in against good lowly ranked contenders, but guys that they kn ew Ali would beat and improve Guys like 6'4 Billy Daniels, 6'4 212lb Alejandro Lavorante, Alex Miteff, Sonny Banks, 152 year old Archie moore were all ranked good fighters and all presented a new stylistica matchup for him, but his management knew no matter they didnt threaten to beat him and Ali would get valuable experience fighting these guys before they threw him in vs Red Meat. The best fighter Ali probably beat pre title was 45 year old Archie Moore who was ranked high and still a dangerous puncher, but they knew Alis speed youthness would be way too much for Archie at his advanced age. when they threw Ali in his first against a top notch young boxer, Ali struggled valiently against jones but gained valuable experience. They were also smart that when Ali suffered his first real punchers test, when he got clocked by a henry cooper left hook, it was henry cooper in ther and not a cleveland williams. So Ali could always dance his way out of there if he got in major trouble. They wanted Ali to gain valuable experience fighting good but not world class fighters, so that as ali continued to mature he would be ready to handle those world class styles when the time was right. Dundee was smart turning down offers from harold johnson and eddie machen.

With Cassius prolific amataur career they could have easily thrown hi against the wolves early. I think had they tried to take on the world class fighters in the early 1960s like harold johnson, machen, folley, williams, johannson, Terell, he would have beat alot of these guys, but he might have been upset 1 or 2 times and certainly been damaged goods early in his career.
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Old 04-07-2008, 02:57 PM   #2
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

so alis first true test was sonny liston?
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Old 04-07-2008, 03:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

"The people who picked Ali's opponents during his career did a masterful job. Sometimes they had to bite the bullet and go after a Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, or George Foreman. But apart from that, they generally chose fighters who were too old or too slow and never at their peak. Occasionally, they made a mistake. Doug Jones was a mistake. And of course, when Ali got old, any fight was dangerous."

EDDIE FUTCH, quoted in Thomas Hauser's "Muhammad Ali:His Life And Times"
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Old 04-07-2008, 03:25 PM   #4
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Ali had good amatuer pedigree, he was gold in the Olympics but Ali was managed masterfully and was well connected and rooted with the Dundee's, Angelo was also an excellent trainer and smart corner guy but the guy has to be a top talent, guys that cant respond to his orders or are less than a great talent fall short. Angelo was a great fighters trainer...Pastrano,Ali,Leonard and his advice and stratergy pulled them all out of adverse situations
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Old 04-07-2008, 04:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
Angelo was a great fighters trainer...Pastrano,Ali,Leonard and his advice and stratergy pulled them all out of adverse situations
That "advice" he gave Ali between round 4 & 5 against Cooper certainly helped him out of an adverse situation.




I have to say though, facing Liston was a huge risk. At that point, Ali was knocked silly by Cooper, knocked down by Banks, both nothing special compared to Liston, and he struggled with Jones. Liston was gonna kill him!

Maybe they wanted to capitalise on their title shot opportunity before he lost, like Biggs vs Tyson, or maybe they had blind confidence in him... but there's a reason he was an 8 to 1 underdog. I think his handlers must have been as nervous as Ali himself was when he stood in front of Liston.
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Old 04-07-2008, 04:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

The group of Louisville millionaires who managed Clay actually thought he took on Liston too soon, it was Clay himself who insisted on taking that fight.
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Old 04-07-2008, 05:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

the thread should have been "ali and his management were very smart"
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Old 04-07-2008, 05:25 PM   #8
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

i can't believe a man that is now near brain dead has to put up with people claiming he took it easy in his career...

fraizer x3

liston x 2

foreman

norton x 3

spinks x 2

cooper x 2

patterson x 2

holmes

yes .. this is a resume of a man who took his career easy ...and was lead down an easy path

Last edited by Brent; 05-06-2007 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 04-07-2008, 05:51 PM   #9
ron u.k.
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

from his early fights all the way through his career ali i believe never fought a fighter with a losing record.
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Old 04-08-2008, 04:43 AM   #10
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Quote:
Originally Posted by CottoDaBodykill
i can't believe a man that is now near brain dead has to put up with people claiming he took it easy in his career...

fraizer x3

liston x 2

foreman

norton x 3

spinks x 2

cooper x 2

patterson x 2

holmes

yes .. this is a resume of a man who took his career easy ...and was lead down an easy path

This is the post of a man who obviously doesn't read threads properly.
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Old 04-08-2008, 07:06 AM   #11
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

He was led along perfectly; I always thought a 62-63 Machen would have been scariest "loss in waiting" fight for the youngster.

Sidebar: Is it just me or did Ali suddenly grow/morph into a huge chiseled "monster" between Cooper & Liston? Physically he looks so much different in those two fights...
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Old 04-08-2008, 09:33 AM   #12
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
"The people who picked Ali's opponents during his career did a masterful job. Sometimes they had to bite the bullet and go after a Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, or George Foreman. But apart from that, they generally chose fighters who were too old or too slow and never at their peak. Occasionally, they made a mistake. Doug Jones was a mistake. And of course, when Ali got old, any fight was dangerous."

EDDIE FUTCH, quoted in Thomas Hauser's "Muhammad Ali:His Life And Times"
I think that's a bit unfair of Futch. After all, besides the aforementioned Liston, Frazier, Norton and Foreman he fought more or less prime versions of Patterson, Chuvalo, Cooper, Terrell, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Bugner, Lyle, Shavers, Young and Holmes. Take into account that he beat several ranked contenders before he took on Liston, and I don't see a fighter with a padded record. But that's just me.
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:03 AM   #13
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Quote:
Originally Posted by jowcol
He was led along perfectly; I always thought a 62-63 Machen would have been scariest "loss in waiting" fight for the youngster.

Sidebar: Is it just me or did Ali suddenly grow/morph into a huge chiseled "monster" between Cooper & Liston? Physically he looks so much different in those two fights...
Extremely strong steroids weren't exactly obscure in olympic use by that time. So who knows. Not all steroids are bulking ones. Some help put on lean muscle, some are minor muscle builders but serious fat burners which is almost impossible to do otherwise, and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
"The people who picked Ali's opponents during his career did a masterful job. Sometimes they had to bite the bullet and go after a Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, or George Foreman. But apart from that, they generally chose fighters who were too old or too slow and never at their peak. Occasionally, they made a mistake. Doug Jones was a mistake. And of course, when Ali got old, any fight was dangerous."

EDDIE FUTCH, quoted in Thomas Hauser's "Muhammad Ali:His Life And Times"
Even the big fights had circumstances to them.

Floyd was having serious health issues by the time Ali got to him.

Everyone knows Foreman's paranoia, cut, and misc other misbecomings in Africa.
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:03 AM   #14
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj
I think that's a bit unfair of Futch. After all, besides the aforementioned Liston, Frazier, Norton and Foreman he fought more or less prime versions of Patterson, Chuvalo, Cooper, Terrell, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Bugner, Lyle, Shavers, Young and Holmes. Take into account that he beat several ranked contenders before he took on Liston, and I don't see a fighter with a padded record. But that's just me.
Wait, who the hell says his record is padded?

That's not the point of this thread at all.
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:23 AM   #15
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
Wait, who the hell says his record is padded?

That's not the point of this thread at all.
No, I know it's not the point of the thread. But it seems like Futch wanted to imply that Ali's record doesn't really stand up for scrutiny, and I don't think really that's fair. He fought Williams when he was past it, and Folley when he was aging. Otherwise I think most of his opponents was in good condition when he fought them, and he faced just about everyone there was to face.

But to answer the thread, yes Ali seemed to be well managed on his rise to the top. He took on some good opponents to get experience while at the same time not biting off more than he could chew. His managers didn't like the fact that the Liston fight came along so soon, but Clay wanted it badly.
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