Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-20-2012, 11:26 AM   #1
OvidsExile
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Washington
Posts: 922
vCash: 500
Default George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

What if George Foreman doesn't retire in 1977? He gets Eddie Futch to train him instead. Can Futch fix Foreman's shortcomings as a boxer the way that Emanuel Steward fixed Wladimir Klitschko? Would better management and training have made Foreman as good as Holmes or Ali? You have to remember that Ali's trainer was ATG Angelo Dundee whereas Foreman's was Dick Sadler, so maybe that made a difference in Zaire. I feel that if Foreman had the level of training that Ali or Holmes got he gives a much better showing of himself and the heavyweight scene from 77-87 is very different.

These are the Holmes golden years. Does he even get one if Foreman is still around? Does Holmes fight a war with Foreman, the way he does with Norton and then never give him a rematch? What happens?

Let's add one more wrinkle to this plot. Teofilo Stevenson turns pro and gets Lou Duva for a trainer. This era now has Holmes, Foreman, Norton, and Stevenson. Is it as good as the 90s with Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, and Bowe or the 70s with Ali, Frazier, Foreman, and Norton? Holmes and Foreman fight them all. How do they do?
OvidsExile is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-20-2012, 12:45 PM   #2
Stevie G
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London,England
Posts: 9,201
vCash: 1000
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

A Holmes v Foreman title fight sees out the golden heavyweight decade. I'll be back with more detail tomorrow.
Stevie G is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 04:47 PM   #3
clark
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 756
vCash: 1000
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

Foreman would really need to get his head on straight. He just wasn't consistent after Ali. Sometimes he was old George and other times confused. A very focused Foreman
(like in Frazier-Foreman 2) and things would be interesting. That Foreman would have been dominant.
clark is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 05:59 PM   #4
MAG1965
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dallas,Texas.
Posts: 17,399
vCash: 1010
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

if he doesn't retire in 77 he does not come back in 1987. You can almost add the 8 years onto that and he retires in 1985 and never has a comeback. And Larry Holmes would have been tough for him to beat. Guys like Weaver he would do well again, but a young Dokes? I am not sure.
MAG1965 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 04:15 PM   #5
Titan1
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,867
vCash: 1000
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

Larry Holmes would've beaten him by mid-78.
Titan1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 04:47 PM   #6
InTheRedCorner
newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 18
vCash: 500
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

If Young was George's nightmare, then Larry would be his doom. I don't think that anybody than George can fix his mental(boxing) shortcomings at this stage(late 70's), obviously with a little help from his invisible friends.
InTheRedCorner is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 05:15 PM   #7
Hookie
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chambersburg, PA
Posts: 2,459
vCash: 500
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

Well, if he didn't get Futch and just kept on... he eventually gets decisioned by Holmes in a war.

If Futch turns him into some other animal... I see another war but maybe Foreman wins a decision or even stops Holmes in the late rounds. Foreman would have to turn into the best HW we NEVER seen though.
Hookie is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 05:57 PM   #8
freelaw
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Warsaw
Posts: 2,269
vCash: 1000
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

He doesn't regain his title in a mega epic way = boxing loses.
freelaw is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 06:10 PM   #9
HOUDINI
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: The Garden State
Posts: 1,861
vCash: 500
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

Foreman would have probably faced Holmes by 1980 and then would have retired. He still certainly may have still came back in the late 80s to rewin the championship.
HOUDINI is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 10:13 PM   #10
Anubis
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 808
vCash: 1000
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

No matter how well trained he was, no matter how he fought, or how well his head was, he'd still have a very serious deficit in hand speed. There's no way he out jabs the prime Holmes who began with Shavers I. His round seven stunning of Young was the latest round in which he displayed serious power during the 1970s. There was still nothing to show he could manage the championship distance. He staggered Jimmy at the outset of that seventh round, then failed miserably to close the show, so much so that Young was able to raise his arms in response to the crowd's cheers when the bell rang to end it.

By 1980, Tex Cobb may have been a real nightmare for Foreman, a mid ring rope a dope punching bag with stamina. Only Holmes dominated Tex before Randall started taking coked out dives and fixes in 1985. He gave Norton, Dokes and Buster Douglas hell.

Mercado could have been another Foreman-Lyle war for George. He'd have better taken Bernardo out early like Shavers couldn't, because if not, the Columbian was one of those sluggers who had the late round power to take him if George gassed. [Don't forget that he was the only man to wipe out former amateur foe Berbick other than Tyson. And he did get off the deck in the third to rally against Shavers.]

John Tate would not have his guard down against George. He did deal successfully with established power punchers like Mercado, Knoetze and Coetzee before the Weaver shock. He was the biggest HW Title claimant during the classic championship distance era [which I define as between the Louis-Simon I scheduled 20 rounder and the post Mancini-Kim fallout]. In his peak year of 1979, he would have had the skills to successfully outbox Foreman at long range, and very possibly the physical strength to neutralize George's own physical strength. The 240 pound Tate of the Coetzee win would likely pull away from a fading Foreman as he did with Gerrie.

Foreman was quite familiar with Big John, having provided color commentary for Tate's three Olympic bouts in Montreal with Cosell on ABC, including John's knockout loss to Stevenson. But George didn't share Stevenson's quickness of hand, mobility, ring generalship and straightness of punching. Both would know Foreman could take Tate out, and I think that would have been much to John's advantage in 1979. Looking at how Tate completely smothered Weaver against the ropes for 13 of 15 rounds, I wonder how the test of physical strength would play out. That's a contest John could afford to lose, with his peak skills, stamina and mobility. However, if Foreman's the one who actually finds HIS back against the ropes, and on the back foot for a change, he'd be in very serious trouble. We never saw anybody do this to George in competition, and he himself said Liston was the only guy he couldn't force backwards in sparring. However, if anybody in the late 1970s could stand their ground like that against Foreman, Tate and Cobb would have been the ones.

Greg Page was fast, could take a good shot, and stay on his toes at his early 1980s best. I'm not a fan of his, but I've always believed his speed, mobility and chin would see him through against Cooney. I think this template could also carry him through with George, but it would have to be the version of Page who defended the USBA Title against LeDoux, Young, Snipes and Tillis.

Rematching Young would not reverse the outcome of their bout in 1977. Jimmy took 11 of 12 rounds in his 1976 rematch with Lyle. Only Ocasio was weird enough to beat Young twice. Foreman was far more predictable than Jaws. I think Jimmy would be inside his head now, and Young would win another decision by a larger margin. Cooney wasn't able to dent Jimmy to the body or head before inflicting the winning cut with a long right. Young seems to have actually increased in durability as he got older, and was acclaimed for comeback of the year after going 5-0 in 1981, going on the road to decision the feared Jeff Sims.

Norton would always be toast against George. We now know Cooney never had the chin or defensive ability to last for long against Foreman.

He knew Dokes from the time Michael was a kid. Although Dokes had tremendously quick hands, he also had short arms, not very good elusiveness, and wasn't much of a mover. He couldn't take the shots he received in Cobb I, Ocasio I or Weaver II and last for long.

Coetzee would be pick-em. Ali was his idol. Gerrie had the heavily doctored right hand to hurt George with, and the skills to outbox him. However, his speed and defensive elusiveness weren't that great, and a negative mentality his idiot father Philip poisoned him with undermined his confidence. Like Jerry Quarry and Gerry Cooney, Gerrie Coetzee's doubts and worries about his stamina severely compromised that very endurance in some key bouts. However, he might be confident that he could outlast Foreman after what Ali and Young did.

Does George regain the title? He might slip in between Leon and Holmes to take Norton's WBC Title before Larry gets a crack at it, but he wouldn't be able to defend it against the Assassin after Holmes-Shavers I. The losses to Ali and Young would have hurt his standing terribly after 1977, but Ken wouldn't be regarded as the top of the food chain with George still swimming about. Norton, if he still got awarded the WBC Title as he did, would have been honor bound to validate it by attempting his first defense against Foreman. We know how that turns out. Then, George in turn would need to redeem it against Young [who would be rejuvenated after Foreman bombed out Ken a second time] or Holmes after Larry's 12 round domination of Shavers. I have a hard time seeing George entering the 1980s as a 30 year old champion.
Anubis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 10:42 PM   #11
HOUDINI
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: The Garden State
Posts: 1,861
vCash: 500
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

No chance Tate, mercado or cobb (yee god!) Do anything with foreman. Tate chin of glass would be koed quickly. Cobb was just too slow and would have taken a huge battering before the ref would stop it ala chuvalo. Mercado could not fight a lick and would be destroyed by george inside of 6 rounds.
HOUDINI is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2013, 03:22 AM   #12
choklab
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bad to the bone and sexy
Posts: 5,458
vCash: 500
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
No matter how well trained he was, no matter how he fought, or how well his head was, he'd still have a very serious deficit in hand speed. There's no way he out jabs the prime Holmes who began with Shavers I. His round seven stunning of Young was the latest round in which he displayed serious power during the 1970s. There was still nothing to show he could manage the championship distance. He staggered Jimmy at the outset of that seventh round, then failed miserably to close the show, so much so that Young was able to raise his arms in response to the crowd's cheers when the bell rang to end it.

By 1980, Tex Cobb may have been a real nightmare for Foreman, a mid ring rope a dope punching bag with stamina. Only Holmes dominated Tex before Randall started taking coked out dives and fixes in 1985. He gave Norton, Dokes and Buster Douglas hell.

Mercado could have been another Foreman-Lyle war for George. He'd have better taken Bernardo out early like Shavers couldn't, because if not, the Columbian was one of those sluggers who had the late round power to take him if George gassed. [Don't forget that he was the only man to wipe out former amateur foe Berbick other than Tyson. And he did get off the deck in the third to rally against Shavers.]

John Tate would not have his guard down against George. He did deal successfully with established power punchers like Mercado, Knoetze and Coetzee before the Weaver shock. He was the biggest HW Title claimant during the classic championship distance era [which I define as between the Louis-Simon I scheduled 20 rounder and the post Mancini-Kim fallout]. In his peak year of 1979, he would have had the skills to successfully outbox Foreman at long range, and very possibly the physical strength to neutralize George's own physical strength. The 240 pound Tate of the Coetzee win would likely pull away from a fading Foreman as he did with Gerrie.

Foreman was quite familiar with Big John, having provided color commentary for Tate's three Olympic bouts in Montreal with Cosell on ABC, including John's knockout loss to Stevenson. But George didn't share Stevenson's quickness of hand, mobility, ring generalship and straightness of punching. Both would know Foreman could take Tate out, and I think that would have been much to John's advantage in 1979. Looking at how Tate completely smothered Weaver against the ropes for 13 of 15 rounds, I wonder how the test of physical strength would play out. That's a contest John could afford to lose, with his peak skills, stamina and mobility. However, if Foreman's the one who actually finds HIS back against the ropes, and on the back foot for a change, he'd be in very serious trouble. We never saw anybody do this to George in competition, and he himself said Liston was the only guy he couldn't force backwards in sparring. However, if anybody in the late 1970s could stand their ground like that against Foreman, Tate and Cobb would have been the ones.

Greg Page was fast, could take a good shot, and stay on his toes at his early 1980s best. I'm not a fan of his, but I've always believed his speed, mobility and chin would see him through against Cooney. I think this template could also carry him through with George, but it would have to be the version of Page who defended the USBA Title against LeDoux, Young, Snipes and Tillis.

Rematching Young would not reverse the outcome of their bout in 1977. Jimmy took 11 of 12 rounds in his 1976 rematch with Lyle. Only Ocasio was weird enough to beat Young twice. Foreman was far more predictable than Jaws. I think Jimmy would be inside his head now, and Young would win another decision by a larger margin. Cooney wasn't able to dent Jimmy to the body or head before inflicting the winning cut with a long right. Young seems to have actually increased in durability as he got older, and was acclaimed for comeback of the year after going 5-0 in 1981, going on the road to decision the feared Jeff Sims.

Norton would always be toast against George. We now know Cooney never had the chin or defensive ability to last for long against Foreman.

He knew Dokes from the time Michael was a kid. Although Dokes had tremendously quick hands, he also had short arms, not very good elusiveness, and wasn't much of a mover. He couldn't take the shots he received in Cobb I, Ocasio I or Weaver II and last for long.

Coetzee would be pick-em. Ali was his idol. Gerrie had the heavily doctored right hand to hurt George with, and the skills to outbox him. However, his speed and defensive elusiveness weren't that great, and a negative mentality his idiot father Philip poisoned him with undermined his confidence. Like Jerry Quarry and Gerry Cooney, Gerrie Coetzee's doubts and worries about his stamina severely compromised that very endurance in some key bouts. However, he might be confident that he could outlast Foreman after what Ali and Young did.

Does George regain the title? He might slip in between Leon and Holmes to take Norton's WBC Title before Larry gets a crack at it, but he wouldn't be able to defend it against the Assassin after Holmes-Shavers I. The losses to Ali and Young would have hurt his standing terribly after 1977, but Ken wouldn't be regarded as the top of the food chain with George still swimming about. Norton, if he still got awarded the WBC Title as he did, would have been honor bound to validate it by attempting his first defense against Foreman. We know how that turns out. Then, George in turn would need to redeem it against Young [who would be rejuvenated after Foreman bombed out Ken a second time] or Holmes after Larry's 12 round domination of Shavers. I have a hard time seeing George entering the 1980s as a 30 year old champion.
This is a good post.

There was a lot of talent around during this period. I think Foreman needed a break from boxing to find his mojo. Otherwise he could have indeed struggled with a lot of fighters joe bugner included. George would have remained a dangerman however and there are still lots of fighters that would have suited him like weaver, Marty Monroe, Lynn ball, Lorenzo zannon and Leon spinks. Fighters Foreman would not have selected for himself were Greg page, Larry Holmes and Tim Witherspoon. Big durable guys who could box were just wrong for him.
choklab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2013, 10:20 AM   #13
Titan1
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,867
vCash: 1000
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

I'm a big Page man, but there is no way he has the strength to deal with George.Neither does Dokes, and even though Cobb has very good strength, he's not going to overpower George.
Titan1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2013, 01:43 PM   #14
choklab
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bad to the bone and sexy
Posts: 5,458
vCash: 500
Default Re: George Foreman doesn't retire in '77

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan1 View Post
I'm a big Page man, but there is no way he has the strength to deal with George.Neither does Dokes, and even though Cobb has very good strength, he's not going to overpower George.
GIven Foremans performance against young, had he continued fighting these guys could have tested George's stamina issues. With the exception of Dokes Foreman might not have knocked any of them them out. Tim WItherspoon, Holmes and Greg page were still availible when Foreman came back but there was no rush to face former early 1980s left overs that he could have fought in the lost years.
choklab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013