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Old 10-21-2013, 04:34 PM   #166
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

I actually think that Ruhlin was a pretty good choice as a title opponent.

He had been very highly regarded before Fitz beat him, and Fitz seems to have refused a title fight with Jeffries, for reasons that are hard to understand.

I think Jeffries just got fed up with it and took the second best available challenger.

I think it is a stretch to say that Ruhlin was damaged goods after the Fitzsimmons fight. Only Jeffries beat him in the next four years.
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Old 10-21-2013, 05:41 PM   #167
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I actually think that Ruhlin was a pretty good choice as a title opponent.

He had been very highly regarded before Fitz beat him, and Fitz seems to have refused a title fight with Jeffries, for reasons that are hard to understand.

I think Jeffries just got fed up with it and took the second best available challenger.

I think it is a stretch to say that Ruhlin was damaged goods after the Fitzsimmons fight. Only Jeffries beat him in the next four years.

Where do you get the idea Fitz refused a fight with Jeffries?

He was desperate for one, god almighty he fought the number 1 and 2 contenders in the space of two weeks and kod them both! Do you think he did that because he wasn't interested in a title shot?

Fitz lost the first round against Ruhlin, in fact he was floored at the end of it, plus he sustained a cut over his eye and a bloody mouth.

Ruhlin came out full of confidence for the second and the battering began,Ruhlin was down 4 times in the fight ,Fitz because his hands were bad, relied mostly on body shots to weaken the 9 years younger man. Ruhlin was not counted out the referee did not bother to start one so thoroughly unconscious was Ruhlin at the end, he was dragged back to his stool .
Fitz began to become concerned about Ruhlin's condition and went over to his corner but Ruhlin was out to the world. It was ten minutes before he could be assisted out of the ring.


“Whilst physicians were examining him, Ruhlin opened his eyes and faintly asked for water. This was given him as he again lapsed into a sort of stupor. Blood at this time was trickling from his ears and nose.”—The San Francisco Call

After the fight Ruhlin spent the night at the arena,[MSG ] to weak to travel,the next day he was removed to Billy Madden his manager's cottage where he stayed in bed for a week.

A fortnight after this Fitz took out Sharkey in 2 rds. Fitz walked over to Jim Jeffries who was sitting ringside and said ,"You'll give me a fight now ,Jim won't you? Get up and shake hands on it"Jeffries remained seated, "Get up Jim and shake" Fitz repeated, leaning over the ropes.The crowd took up his cry, urging Jeffries to respond with no way to escape Jeffries finally rose and grasped Fitz's gloved hand,and the crowd applauded.

And you say Fitz didnt want the fight!

So what happened? Fitz had just kod both the top contenders inside two weeks .

Who does Jeffries fight? He has an exhibition with Griffn, then takes on his sparring partner Tom Kennedy. A year after Fitz turned this incredible feat ,Jeffries defended his title but not against Fitz but the man he had beat unconscious, Ruhlin.
Fitz had to wait two years before Jeffries finally gave him a rematch, by which time he was all but 40.
After the Sharkey fight Fitz gave an interview in his dressing room. Here is part of it.
" I mean to become champion of the world again, and the only man now in the way is Jim Jeffries.He whipped me once but I don't think he will do it again When we met I had not fought in a couple of years and naturally was not in the best of condition.But I am in great form now and really think that if we meet againI would come out on top.In fact I held Jeffries too cheaply , but I learned a lesson and will not be caught napping next time.If they give me enough money I guess I will be ready to fight Jeffries sometime inside the next six months,"[ he would have to wait two years, and once again was coming out of two years inactivity when he finally got his chance.]

Last edited by mcvey; 10-22-2013 at 04:47 AM.
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:20 PM   #168
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Where do you get the idea Fitz refused a fight with Jeffries?
Remember the backwards and forwards before Klitschko Haye?

Exactly the nsame thing happened with Jeffries Fitzsimmons II.

Quote:
He was desperate for one, god almighty he fought the number 1 and 2 contenders in the space of two weeks and kod them both! Do you think he did that because he wasn't interested in a title shot?
He was making a lot of money destroying the contenders, and he was determined to get his price for a Jeffries rematch.


Quote:
Fitz lost the first round against Ruhlin, in fact he was floored at the end of it, plus he sustained a cut over his eye and a bloody mouth.

Ruhlin came out full of confidence for the second and the battering began,Ruhlin was down 4 times in the fight ,Fitz because his hands were bad, relied mostly on body shots to weaken the 9 years younger man. Ruhlin was not counted out the referee did not bother to start one so thoroughly unconscious was Ruhlin at the end, he was dragged back to his stool .
Fitz began to become concerned about Ruhlin's condition and went over to his corner but Ruhlin was out to the world. It was ten minutes before he could be assisted out of the ring.
After the fight Ruhlin spent the night at the arena,[MSG ] to weak to travel,the next day he was removed to Billy Madden his manager's cottage where he stayed in bed for a week.
You don't need to sell me the idea that Ruhlin took a bad beating.

Quote:
A fortnight after this Fitz took out Sharkey in 2 rds. Fitz walked over to Jim Jeffries who was sitting ringside and said ,"You'll give me a fight now ,Jim won't you? Get up and shake hands on it"Jeffries remained seated, "Get up Jim and shake" Fitz repeated, leaning over the ropes.The crowd took up his cry, urging Jeffries to respond with no way to escape Jeffries finally rose and grasped Fitz's gloved hand,and the crowd applauded.
But the bottom line is that Fitz refused if the terms wern't to his likling.

Quote:
And you say Fitz didnt want the fight!
I am not saying that he didn't want it, but he was obviously prepared to wait to get more money.

Quote:
So what happened? Fitz had just kod both the top contenders inside two weeks .
The public wanted it.

Jeffries seems to have been willing.

Fitz ultimately delayed it.

Quote:
Who does Jeffries fight? He has an exhibition with Griffn, then takes on his sparring partner Tom Kennedy. A year after Fitz turned this incredible feat ,Jeffries defended his title but not against Fitz but the man he had beat unconscious, Ruhlin.
The best man who would agree to fight him.

Quote:
Fitz had to wait two years before Jeffries finally gave him a rematch, by which time he was all but 40.
No, Fitz chose to wait two years!

Incredible as it sounds, it seems to be true.

Quote:
After the Sharkey fight Fitz gave an interview in his dressing room. Here is part of it.
" I mean to become champion of the world again, and the only man now in the way is Jim Jeffries.He whipped me once but I don't think he will do it again When we met I had not fought in a couple of years and naturally was not in the best of condition.But I am in great form now and really think that if we meet againI would come out on top.In fact I held Jeffries too cheaply , but I learned a lesson and will not be caught napping next time.If they give me enough money I guess I will be ready to fight Jeffries sometime inside the next six months,"[ he would have to wait two years, and once again was coming out of two years inactivity when he finally got his chance.
The operative term is "if they give me enough money".
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Old 10-21-2013, 07:42 PM   #169
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

[quote=janitor;15758243]
Quote:

Remember the backwards and forwards before Klitschko Haye?

Exactly the nsame thing happened with Jeffries Fitzsimmons II.



He was making a lot of money destroying the contenders, and he was determined to get his price for a Jeffries rematch.




You don't need to sell me the idea that Ruhlin took a bad beating.



But the bottom line is that Fitz refused if the terms wern't to his likling.



I am not saying that he didn't want it, but he was obviously prepared to wait to get more money.



The public wanted it.

Jeffries seems to have been willing.

Fitz ultimately delayed it.



The best man who would agree to fight him.



No, Fitz chose to wait two years!

Incredible as it sounds, it seems to be true.



The operative term is "if they give me enough money".

You couldn't be more wrong on this. Fitz didnt choose to wait two years at all he was ready to fight Jeffries 6 months after koing Sharkey in 2 rds.
Fitz was then 37 ,Jeffries 25 ,time was not on Fitz's side.

You need to read up on this because you have it completely arse about face.

Jeffries signed up for a lucrative theatrical tour,and 37 years old Fitz was left out in the cold.

The reason Fitz was in the ring with Ruhlin was Jim Corbett's idea, he persuaded Billy Madden Ruhlin's manager that Ruhlin by beating Fitz would force Jeffries to fight him.


Fitz was a terrible business man and lost out on several purses, for instance the Sharkey rematch was a $25,000 winner take all deal.Fitz was persuaded to take a 50/50 split, so his purse was reduced to $12,500.

Did you know that Fitz met Ruhlin again 10 months later?
It was a wrestling match, Fitz was giving Ruhlin 20 lbs .The mens heads came together the first time they clinched, Ruhlin reeled back with a bloody nose.Fitz seeing the blood ,forgot all about wrestling and punched Ruhlin in the face with his bare fist.The referee Charley White warned Fitz who told him to "get out of the way"and they swapped blows with Gus getting the worst of it.Ruhlin then pinned the lighter Fitz's arms by his sides and tried to force him down for a fall.They went down in a tangle with Fitz on top. quickly back on their feet they started trading punches.
Ruhlin grabbed Fitz and slammed him down to the mat taking his breath away and gaining the first fall .
After the rest, Ruhlin moved in to use his superior weight on Fitz but Fitz slugged him in the solar plexus.
Ruhlin grabbed Fitz by the throat and tried to strangle him, Fitz got home with another body shot and Ruhlin let go of his grip but Fitz had no breathe left in him .
Ruhlin leapt forward, grabbed Fitz picked him up and threw him down then dropped on top to gain the second fall, and the match. Jeffries finally got around to defending against Fitzsimmons ,the fight was in Jeffries home town of San Francisco, 3 years after their first fight.
Fitz's chief sparring partner for the return was Hank Griffin.

By the way the weights announced for the fighters was Jeffries 215, Fitz 160 . Bit different from Box rec

Last edited by mcvey; 10-22-2013 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:39 AM   #170
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

For an answer to the debate about the delay in the Fitz-Jeff rematch, see pages 428 - 432, 450 - 452, 503, 506 - 512 of In the Ring With James J. Jeffries.
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:45 AM   #171
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

[quote=mcvey;15758337]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post

Did you know that Fitz met Ruhlin again 10 months later?
It was a wrestling match, Fitz was giving Ruhlin 20 lbs .The mens heads came together the first time they clinched, Ruhlin reeled back with a bloody nose.Fitz seeing the blood ,forgot all about wrestling and punched Ruhlin in the face with his bare fist.The referee Charley White warned Fitz who told him to "get out of the way"and they swapped blows with Gus getting the worst of it.Ruhlin then pinned the lighter Fitz's arms by his sides and tried to force him down for a fall.They went down in a tangle with Fitz on top. quickly back on their feet they started trading punches.
Ruhlin grabbed Fitz and slammed him down to the mat taking his breath away and gaining the first fall .
After the rest, Ruhlin moved in to use his superior weight on Fitz but Fitz slugged him in the solar plexus.
Ruhlin grabbed Fitz by the throat and tried to strangle him, Fitz got home with another body shot and Ruhlin let go of his grip but Fitz had no breathe left in him .
Ruhlin leapt forward, grabbed Fitz picked him up and threw him down then dropped on top to gain the second fall, and the match.
thats cool, thx for posting it
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:40 AM   #172
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

Quote:
Utter BS. Since when does a KO loss bar anyone from a title shot? If you looked at Ruhlin record you will see he beat Maher before he lost to Fitz.

Jeffries KO'd Ruhlin a round faster than Fitz did. Are you saying Ruhlin was shot? Um, he beat Maher, Sharkey and Everett after losing to Jeffries, then had enough left to draw with Hart past his pirme.

How did Johnson do vs. Everett and Hart? He drew and lost. So Ruhlin who you think was done for did better than Johnson vs the same men!

The truth is Ruhlin could be viewed as Johnson's best title opponent, save Willard.

Jeffries gave re-matches to those who deserved it. Griffin, Sharkey, and Ruhlin gave Jeffries a good fight on the way up. So each had a re-match with Jeffries title on the line.

Johnson's track record of re-matches as Champion is shameful. O'Brien and Jim Battling Johnson did not get a 2nd try even though they drew with him as champion! Some say they beat Johnson! GunBoat Smith Knocked Johnson silly in 1909 in a 4 rd ex match. He was never given a title shot either. And of coruse Langford, Jeannette and McVey were locked out of re-matches when Johnson was champion even though big time money was mentioned via the press.
Quote:
Mcvey;I'm saying Ruhlin was never the same fighter after being kod Mby Fitz have you actually read the ringside reports of the fight?
Jeffries did NOT KO Ruhlin ,Ruhlin's corner stopped the fight between rds,5 and 6, more spin
I know who Ruhlin beat, and when he did so.
I know that Fitz half killed him and he did not deserve a title chance.
So he wasn't in Fitz class. Big deal, as I showed you he did well post Fitz, so he wasn't shot. Do I really need to show you how many times Johnson's title opponents were KO'd?

Quote:
Johnson drew with Jim Johnson when he was 35 fighting with a broken arm.

Jim Johnson's subsequent form did not merit another title chance.There was never any demand for a second O Brien fight
If a draw in a title match doesn't merit a re-match, I don't know what does. Excuses!!!


Quote:
Smith was never anxious to fight Johnson, he changed the subject when interviewed about it in the UK.
The money was never up. Of course Smith would have taken it. Instead, Johnson gave title shots to men who Smith beat first in Moran and Willard!


Quote:
As champion Johnson signed to fight Jeannette three times ,each time authorites veteod the match ,he signed to fight Langford twice too, once it fell through because Woodman could not come up with a cash binder and once the purse was too derisory I've posted the corroborating reports several times.
Keep believe that. Johnson as champion could have fought ANYWHERE in the world. Its the same BS with Wills signing for Dempsey...the match wasn't going to happen!

To summarize, Jeffries gave re-matches to those who gave him good fights as champion. Johnson did not and avoided the best as champion! None of your lies will change that fact.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:43 AM   #173
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I actually think that Ruhlin was a pretty good choice as a title opponent.

He had been very highly regarded before Fitz beat him, and Fitz seems to have refused a title fight with Jeffries, for reasons that are hard to understand.

I think Jeffries just got fed up with it and took the second best available challenger.

I think it is a stretch to say that Ruhlin was damaged goods after the Fitzsimmons fight. Only Jeffries beat him in the next four years.
Your are correct. But McVey has an agenda in front of his face that blocks objective reasoning. As I mentioned Ruhlin beat ( via quick KO ) Everett and drew with Hart post Jeffries. Johnson drew with Everett and lost to Hart.

So if Ruhlin was " shot " post Jeffries, Johnson might not have even be as good using the same opponents...and Ruhlin was past it for the Hart match.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:08 PM   #174
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Your are correct. But McVey has an agenda in front of his face that blocks objective reasoning. As I mentioned Ruhlin beat ( via quick KO ) Everett and drew with Hart post Jeffries. Johnson drew with Everett and lost to Hart.

So if Ruhlin was " shot " post Jeffries, Johnson might not have even be as good using the same opponents...and Ruhlin was past it for the Hart match.
After Fitzsimmons knocked out both Sharkey and Ruhlin in a total of under 8rds and in a two week period ,who deserved a title shot more Fitzsimmons or Ruhlin?
Take your tongue out of Jeffries anus.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:17 PM   #175
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
After Fitzsimmons knocked out both Sharkey and Ruhlin in a total of under 8rds and in a two week period ,who deserved a title shot more Fitzsimmons or Ruhlin?
Take your tongue out of Jeffries anus.
Fitz, but Jeffries had already knocked him out. Fitz got his re-match anyway by proving he wasn't a shot fighter after Jeffries beat him.

The point you make that Johnson would fight Langford, McVey, or Jeannette is hilarious. It is false. Below is an article that nails it.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:01 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Fitz, but Jeffries had already knocked him out. Fitz got his re-match anyway by proving he wasn't a shot fighter after Jeffries beat him.

The point you make that Johnson would fight Langford, McVey, or Jeannette is hilarious. It is false. Below is an article that nails it.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
The point I make is that after koing Ruhlin and Sharkey Fitz did not fight Jeffries for another two years. This link below details the 1912 fight between Johnson and Jeannette being cancelled.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

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Old 10-22-2013, 03:56 PM   #177
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
You couldn't be more wrong on this. Fitz didnt choose to wait two years at all he was ready to fight Jeffries 6 months after koing Sharkey in 2 rds.
Fitz was then 37 ,Jeffries 25 ,time was not on Fitz's side.

You need to read up on this because you have it completely arse about face.

Jeffries signed up for a lucrative theatrical tour,and 37 years old Fitz was left out in the cold.
As Adam says, this is covered in his book in considerable detail.

I wont say that it did not surprise me, but it seems inescapable that Fitzsimmons was instrumental in the fight being delayed.
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:39 PM   #178
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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As Adam says, this is covered in his book in considerable detail.

I wont say that it did not surprise me, but it seems inescapable that Fitzsimmons was instrumental in the fight being delayed.
Fitz's wife Rose was on his case to retire ,but he wanted one more go on the carousel.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:56 AM   #179
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
After Fitzsimmons knocked out both Sharkey and Ruhlin in a total of under 8rds and in a two week period ,who deserved a title shot more Fitzsimmons or Ruhlin?
Take your tongue out of Jeffries anus.
He should have rematched John Finnegan who had avenged his Cavanaugh loss and had gone undefeated since his unsuccessful title shot.

Other Options were

Jack Johnson who was not a top 10 fighter.

Or Joe Choynski who had just drawn with Jeffries and was about to KO Johnson

or John L Sullivan who was calling out Jeffries for a unification bout and had just KOd McCormack?

or Hank Griffin, who had just beaten Jack Munroe?
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:01 AM   #180
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He should have rematched John Finnegan who had avenged his Cavanaugh loss and had gone undefeated since his unsuccessful title shot.

Other Options were

Jack Johnson who was not a top 10 fighter.

Or Joe Choynski who had just drawn with Jeffries and was about to KO Johnson

or John L Sullivan who was calling out Jeffries for a unification bout and had just KOd McCormack?

or Hank Griffin, who had just beaten Jack Munroe?
Good old Finnegan who qualified for a fight with Jeffries by being knocked down 7 times by Ruhlin in his previous fight, and carried out of the ring unconscious at the end.All in the space of 4 rds!

Would Frank Childs who fought Butler, Armstrong ,Dunkhorst,Everett and Klondike x2 in 1900 ,not have been a better match than Finnegan?
How about Denver Ed Martin ,who fought Klondike, and Armstrong that year?
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