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View Poll Results: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston
Marciano by KO 55 35.48%
Marciano by Decision 4 2.58%
Draw 4 2.58%
Liston by KO 79 50.97%
Liston by Decision 13 8.39%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-04-2013, 10:07 PM   #346
Seamus
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by ETM View Post
They were good, reasonable points. I don`t believe he was trying to paint Marciano as Pernell Whitaker but that he had a method to his madness. There was some skill there even if it wasn`t obvious at times.

I`d pick Liston as well but I don`t discount Marciano`s chances totally. Liston had flaws in his game too.

As to your point about Rocky`s longevity its true that just about all of the shorter 'pitbull' heavyweights, even the great ones had a "short career at the top".

They can be great forces at their peak though. Usually take both fighters at their best.
More shitty points. (Not really. I just wanted to write that).

His skills are quite obvious. He worked wonderfully within his physical limitations. But let's not overstate the case.

And yes, Marciano had the style that makes short career even though his was especially short.

And I DO LOVE all those bringing up Liston's 8th fight against a 17-5 Marty Marshall. Marciano's 8th fight was against some Guido named Gilbert Carbone who was 0-1 and ended with the illustrious record of 0-4, all 4 defeats coming within the distance. The more you know...
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Old 12-05-2013, 04:01 AM   #347
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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unfortunately for Liston his record vs guys that took his best and kept coming came later in his career,Marty Marshall was what 179lbs when he beat Sonny, Ali was crazy as can be with but Liston failed, but in all fairness Ali had a unique style and later in his career when Leotis Martin got off the floor and got inside and close he knocked Sonny out flat and cold

I know some will use the Big Cat fights as reference but IMO Big Cat overrated and was KO'd pretty dominantly by Bob Satterfield before the Liston fights

I think the right style to beat Liston is someone that can fight on the inside with power, someone that can take what Sonny can dish and keep coming or an Ali style unique (I thought Ali was doomed at the time)

Liston had the intimidation thing going pretty well but the cracks in his armor proved wider than thought
How old was Liston when he fought Martin? Marciano at the same age might have fared the same. You pick a green Liston v Marshall,[ whom Liston dominated later ,]and an old one v Martin to make your case. Marciano retired in his prime ,it would be interesting to see him pushing 40 taking on the young tigers.

Marciano was in danger of being stopped on cuts against Keene Simmons and Charles yet he is going to take all Sonny can dish out?

Remind me when Marciano met a 200lbs plus heavy duty puncher in his prime? One who also possesses decent skills and a telegraph pole left jab?
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Old 12-05-2013, 04:22 AM   #348
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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If Liston could pick a style he would pick Marciano?

I don't think so. Who would pick a great fighter with so much desire, so awkward, so hard hitting, durable and defiant? It would be an awful bruising fight even if he could beat Rocky.

Relegating Marciano to mere "small swarmer with propensity to cut" is an outrageous assumption akin in fact to excusing the quit jobs, phantom punch, knockout losses and assuming Listons elite resume is comparable to Marcianos.

Yes Liston intimidated good fighters and was a monster on film against the also rans but Sonny was less imposing when stood up to by lesser men than Marciano.
No matter how many times he beat him back Sonny still lost to a smaller man than Marciano and was knocked out by less potent punchers.

Marciano was not unbeatable but IMO he was awkward and required a more seasoned, faster handed and footed champion with more proven elite form than Sonny Liston to beat him.
Yes he would pick a slow, small swarmer as opposed to a fast stepping ,
cleverly defensive fighter.
Relegating is not the word assessing is.Marciano was a slow swarmer, with a propensity to cut ,[he was in danger of losing two fights to facial damage].

Liston's resume I beleive I have dealt with ,given the opportunity he beats ancient Moore and running scared Ingo that's two world champs added to it.
He already wiped his arse with Floyd twice ,and knocked off the two best contenders in Folley and Machen. That easily compares with Marciano's scalp sheet , the best of which comprises a near 40 Walcott, a pastprime ex lhvy Charles, and a 40 yrs old lhy Moore.


Layne,****ell,and Mathews might go 10 rds with Liston,



collectively that is.

The relic of Joe Louis that marked and puffed up both Rocky's eyes with the remnants of his jab would be taken out early by Liston. If you want to look at what names are missing on their prospective rises to the title Liston pisses it, who did he miss who was any good?



Marciano? ; Baker,Wallace,Henry,Valdes,
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Old 12-05-2013, 06:40 AM   #349
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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I don't know about that. I have Layne, Williams, Machen, Folley, Valdez, and Lastarza, all on the level. Layne actually may have the best resume of the bunch from a superficial standpoint with his wins over Thompson, Hall, Satterfield, Walcott, and Charles.
Well, when we're talking about how much credit Walcott and Charles should get for their collective record of 2 wins and 2 losses against Layne, I don't think you're allowed to use the fact that he beat the famous Walcott and Charles to make that look better. Otherwise, what does he have? Turkey Thompson? Ok, but Thompson was in the middle of a career-ending losing streak. Henry Hall? A light heavyweight who'd lost most of his bouts over the last 2 years when Layne scraped home on a split decision against him. Bob Satterfield was a good scalp, but while dangerous Satterfield was fragile and did get beaten fairly often.

The younger heavyweights of the early 50s were just not good enough to stay at the top when better fighters started to come through later in the decade. Layne was still in his mid twenties when his losses to Earl Walls and Hurricane Jackson finished him as a contender. Valdes was beaten by Machen and Folley just a year after his close 15-round decision loss to Moore.

Patterson, Machen, Folley and Williams, on the other hand, all proved their quality by remaining contenders well into their thirties, scoring wins against rising stars like Ernie Terrell, Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:55 AM   #350
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

There a a myriad of guys that are delusional when it comes to Marciano and no rational thought will budge them … for the most part they are the usual suspects as this thread keeps rising like a Phoenix every month or so .. I don't even really read them anymore because they are so redundant but had a few seconds this AM and see nothing has changed. This is pure tribal behavior, nothing more.

Few fighters are more made for another than Marciano was for Liston and I see him getting crushed early, either sliced to pieces or flattened in three or four rounds tops.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:15 AM   #351
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Well, when we're talking about how much credit Walcott and Charles should get for their collective record of 2 wins and 2 losses against Layne, I don't think you're allowed to use the fact that he beat the famous Walcott and Charles to make that look better. Otherwise, what does he have? Turkey Thompson? Ok, but Thompson was in the middle of a career-ending losing streak. Henry Hall? A light heavyweight who'd lost most of his bouts over the last 2 years when Layne scraped home on a split decision against him. Bob Satterfield was a good scalp, but while dangerous Satterfield was fragile and did get beaten fairly often.

The younger heavyweights of the early 50s were just not good enough to stay at the top when better fighters started to come through later in the decade. Layne was still in his mid twenties when his losses to Earl Walls and Hurricane Jackson finished him as a contender. Valdes was beaten by Machen and Folley just a year after his close 15-round decision loss to Moore.

Patterson, Machen, Folley and Williams, on the other hand, all proved their quality by remaining contenders well into their thirties, scoring wins against rising stars like Ernie Terrell, Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry.

-This is why I used the description of "superficial"

-Layne was ruined as a contender by the savage beatings he took from Charles and Marciano in a 3 month span. After that, he started showing up to fights out of shape and fell into gate keeper territority. He got a gift decision from Dempsey that briefly kept his career afloat, but he was washed up very young. Certainly his own fault, but his career got off to a promising start. He survived a Satterfield blitz that an upstart Williams couldn't endure. And he did out hustle an injued Walcott for two excellent signature performances.

-Valdez suffered severe eye damage in a brutal loss to Satterfield that basically finished his career as a top HW prior to facing Folley and Machen. He still had power and picked up some good wins over late 50s contenders DeJohn, ****ell, McMurty, and London in his last fight before the vision problems finally forced him to retire.

-And if you are playing how they did against similar competition game, Moore stopped a prime Johnson who would go on to outbox Machen, and he hospitialized the giant Lavorante who had just dominated and KOed Folley.

-Well, Patterson is an all time great. But I will add Machen, Folley, and Williams were much much better managed than their early 50s counterparts. They were brought up and managed similar to modern HWs, gradually built up on declining contenders and names, limited meetings between each other, getting easy matches and lay off safter brutal losses.

For example, after getting destroyed by Ingo, Machen took about 5 months off and wouldn't fight another real contender until over a year later. Compare that to the bloody Layne gauntlet above. Not to take anything away from Machen but is it not surprising he had a longer shelf life?

Last edited by The Mongoose; 12-05-2013 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:30 AM   #352
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by The Mongoose View Post
-This is why I used the description of "superficial"

-Layne was ruined as a contender by the savage beatings he took from Charles and Marciano in a 3 month span. After that, he started showing up to fights out of shape and fell into gate keeper territority. He got a gift decision from Dempsey that briefly kept his career afloat, but he was washed up very young. Certainly his own fault, but his career got off to a promising start. He survived a Satterfield blitz that an upstart Williams couldn't endure.

-Valdez suffered severe eye damage in a brutal loss to Satterfield that basically finished his career as a top HW prior to facing Folley and Machen.

-And if you are playing how they did against similar competition game, Moore stopped a prime Johnson who would go on to outbox Machen, and he hospitialized the giant Lavorante who had just dominated and KOed Folley.

-Well, Patterson is an all time great. But I will add Machen, Folley, and Williams were much much better managed than their early 50s counterparts. They were brought up and managed similar to modern HWs, gradually built up on declining contenders and names, limited meetings between each other, getting easy matches and lay off safter brutal losses.

For example, after getting destroyed by Ingo, Machen took about 5 months off and wouldn't fight another real contender until over a year later. Compare that to the bloody Layne gauntlet above. Not to take anything away from Machen but is it not surprising he had a longer shelf life?
Well addressed points, but Machen tried desperately to get Ingo to live up to their return fight agreement ,to no avail ,so it isn't surprising he went a bit lacksadaisical after wards,imo.

Last edited by mcvey; 12-05-2013 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:08 AM   #353
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Well addressed points, but Machen tried desperately to get Ingo to live uo to their return fight agreement ,to no avail ,so it isn't surprising he went a bit lacksadaisical after wards,imo.
Machen/Ingo II would have been interesting, can't say for sure how it would have turned out. There's a chance Machen could have either turned it around or ended up in bad shape. He didn't do too well agianst Folley in his next high profile match, so maybe its for the best the Ingo match didn't happen. And I can understand Ingo wanting to cash in against Patterson as soon as possible.
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Old 12-05-2013, 01:42 PM   #354
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Yes he would pick a slow, small swarmer as opposed to a fast stepping ,
cleverly defensive fighter.
Relegating is not the word assessing is.Marciano was a slow swarmer, with a propensity to cut ,[he was in danger of losing two fights to facial damage].

Liston's resume I beleive I have dealt with ,given the opportunity he beats ancient Moore and running scared Ingo that's two world champs added to it.
He already wiped his arse with Floyd twice ,and knocked off the two best contenders in Folley and Machen. That easily compares with Marciano's scalp sheet , the best of which comprises a near 40 Walcott, a pastprime ex lhvy Charles, and a 40 yrs old lhy Moore.


Layne,****ell,and Mathews might go 10 rds with Liston,



collectively that is.

The relic of Joe Louis that marked and puffed up both Rocky's eyes with the remnants of his jab would be taken out early by Liston. If you want to look at what names are missing on their prospective rises to the title Liston pisses it, who did he miss who was any good?



Marciano? ; Baker,Wallace,Henry,Valdes,
assessing marciano simply as a small swarmer, a slow swarmer at that, is missing the point and wrong.
Catorogising is a generalisation that cannot apply to the unique exceptions of the rule. All "one type of fighter always lose to another type of fighter" cliches are exactly the kind of bullshit that should only be excused for those less experienced historians. The customer is not always right. It is a cliche. A generalisation. Marciano hit hard with both hands and Liston was not faster, nor was he hard to hit. These are fair observations not generalisation.

Addressing the resumes of both men cannot be based only on assumptions. Some of it has to be factual. Liston was knocked out. Liston did not win tough fights at elite level an Liston did lose to smaller men than Marciano. Liston did not beat Johansson, we can only guess he could. This is fair observation not generalisation.
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:31 PM   #355
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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assessing marciano simply as a small swarmer, a slow swarmer at that, is missing the point and wrong.
Catorogising is a generalisation that cannot apply to the unique exceptions of the rule. All "one type of fighter always lose to another type of fighter" cliches are exactly the kind of bullshit that should only be excused for those less experienced historians. The customer is not always right. It is a cliche. A generalisation. Marciano hit hard with both hands and Liston was not faster, nor was he hard to hit. These are fair observations not generalisation.

Addressing the resumes of both men cannot be based only on assumptions. Some of it has to be factual. Liston was knocked out. Liston did not win tough fights at elite level an Liston did lose to smaller men than Marciano. Liston did not beat Johansson, we can only guess he could. This is fair observation not generalisation.
If you asked anyone to assess Marciano's style and disregard who he was I would bet they would say he was a small swarmer and slow afoot. I have never suggestted that all small swarmers must lose to bigger heavy punchers.
What I have said is that if Liston could pick one style to fight Marciano's would closely resemble it.
Liston was faster with his hands than Marciano , hit hard with both hands too , and also had a killer left jab, he was also better defensively, which made him harder to hit, being prepared to back pedal and regroup when necessary.

Liston was stopped when he was past his prime, Marciano retired in his, how he would cope with younger, stronger, bigger men ,when he was into his late 30's we don't know.
I'm neither a bullshitter ,nor a historian of any description, and if you are going to get out of your pram because I politely disagree with you, we can terminate this now.

Last edited by mcvey; 12-06-2013 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:12 PM   #356
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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If you asked anyone to assess Marciano's style and disregard who he was I would bet they would say he was a small swarmer and slow afoot. I have never suggetsted that all small swarmers must lose to bigger heavy punchers.
What I have said is that if Liston could pick one style to fight Marciano's would closely resemble it.
Liston was faster with his hands than Marciano , hit hard with both hands too , and also had a killer left jab, he was also better defensively, which made him harder to hit, being prepared to back pedal and regroup when necessary.

Liston was stopped when he was past his prime, Marciano retired in his, how he would cope with younger, stronger, bigger men ,when he was into his late 30's we don't know.
I'm neither a bullshitter ,nor a historian of any description, and if you are going to get out of your pram because I politely disagree with you, we can terminate this now.
How about Liston about 15" in reach on him to maximize his killer jab and fought far more big punchers ... ? Small details I know but still ...
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:20 PM   #357
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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How about Liston about 15" in reach on him to maximize his killer jab and fought far more big punchers ... ? Small details I know but still ...
Liston had a wonderful jab. A real potent step in jab. Superb against upright, conventional boxers stranded at range. There is not much evidence that it was the kind of jab that was effective against Awkward crouching crowding opponents trained by Charlie Goldman.

Remember Joe Louis against charlie Goldman trained Atrturo Godoy?
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:33 PM   #358
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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If you asked anyone to assess Marciano's style and disregard who he was I would bet they would say he was a small swarmer and slow afoot. I have never suggetsted that all small swarmers must lose to bigger heavy punchers.
What I have said is that if Liston could pick one style to fight Marciano's would closely resemble it.
Liston was faster with his hands than Marciano , hit hard with both hands too , and also had a killer left jab, he was also better defensively, which made him harder to hit, being prepared to back pedal and regroup when necessary.
.
The relevance of Listons speed of punch and power should be measured only against the type of fighters he fought in real life. He had a hex over Floyd who was never able to perform against Sonny, the other great fighter he fought was albeit one of the best of all time but a young upstart at the time. Now that is not a lot to go on. And that is unfortunate.

Take away those that Sonny met that were not intimidated by Sonnys bad boy reputation and it leaves not that many unique wins. Machen? Besmanoff? WHitehurst? king? A tad unfair perhaps but an observation rather than generalisation. we need to scrutinize the evidence in competative Liston fights and compare them to competative marciano fights.

How competative were Patterson and Harris? Were they intimidated? If they were not how come they did not do so well as machen Whitehurst besmanof king and co?
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Old 12-05-2013, 04:00 PM   #359
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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-Layne was ruined as a contender by the savage beatings he took from Charles and Marciano in a 3 month span. After that, he started showing up to fights out of shape and fell into gate keeper territority. He got a gift decision from Dempsey that briefly kept his career afloat, but he was washed up very young. Certainly his own fault, but his career got off to a promising start. He survived a Satterfield blitz that an upstart Williams couldn't endure. And he did out hustle an injued Walcott for two excellent signature performances.

-Valdez suffered severe eye damage in a brutal loss to Satterfield that basically finished his career as a top HW prior to facing Folley and Machen. He still had power and picked up some good wins over late 50s contenders DeJohn, ****ell, McMurty, and London in his last fight before the vision problems finally forced him to retire.
I've heard this narrative before but I don't really buy it. If Layne was ruined by Marciano and Charles in '51 it means that he was already ruined when he beat Charles in '52 (I realise the decision over Charles was disputed, but a poll of the ringside press put the consensus at a 4-3-3 win for Charles - too close to be a blatant robbery). Likewise, it means that Roland LaStarza earned his title shot with a split decision win against a ruined fighter.

As for Valdes, I don't think there's any evidence that his eye injury was suffered against Satterfield. When it was discovered in 1960, Valdes himself said that he'd had it for 10 years.
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Old 12-05-2013, 04:46 PM   #360
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Liston had a wonderful jab. A real potent step in jab. Superb against upright, conventional boxers stranded at range. There is not much evidence that it was the kind of jab that was effective against Awkward crouching crowding opponents trained by Charlie Goldman.

Remember Joe Louis against charlie Goldman trained Atrturo Godoy?
Seems to me Patterson fought out of a crouch

I do .. both fights.
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