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View Poll Results: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston
Marciano by KO 55 35.48%
Marciano by Decision 4 2.58%
Draw 4 2.58%
Liston by KO 79 50.97%
Liston by Decision 13 8.39%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-15-2013, 02:43 PM   #661
choklab
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Really, I don't know what to say to you any more. Most of your post is completely non-responsive.
At the end of the day it is logical that Floyd was psyched out against Sonny and it is logical Liston quit against Clay. You dont think it was but you accept its ok for Nick Toches to say Moore thew the marciano fight? Three times I brought that up and you keep quiet about that...

You are still sitting on the fence about what you think happened to excuse Listons piss poor effort in both Clay fights aside to say there are a list of unproven theories weaker than him being inactive as to why he went from prime to old one fight. I acknowledged all the points you raised.

I don't think the losers of the Liston v patterson fights and the ALi v Liston fights did themselves justice. The winners of the one round fights hit pretty lucky. I mean, what was Ali up against in Maine? How much resistance did poor Floyd put up? These were cake walks.

Liston at least tried to win the first fight with Ali right up until he got tired and hurt. But those other fights were cake walks for the winner. Zero resistance.
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Old 12-15-2013, 03:51 PM   #662
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
At the end of the day it is logical that Floyd was psyched out against Sonny and it is logical Liston quit against Clay.
You see, this whole exchange has been about what you mean by "psyched out" and you have just struggled desperately to tell me - you avoid the issue, you are non-responsive, you talk a lot of shit. I accept that Floyd was uncomfortable - Mike Tyson said recently that only Mexicans fight with the attitude that they knocked out the guy who knocked them out in the rematch. It's unlikely that even the toughest of fighters - and Floyd was fragile - can come into the ring after being brutalised without feeling some affects. Even Frazier was affected a bit.

But that affection isn't always bad. It can mean a variety of different things.

Quote:
You dont think it was but you accept its ok for Nick Toches to say Moore thew the marciano fight?
you dummy. No I don't think that's okay at all, I haven't said anywhere that it's okay, there is no post saying that it's okay by me anywhere.

Quote:
Three times I brought that up and you keep quiet about that...
You must, must be trolling me. I feel kind of stupid for falling for it at this point. I told you my opinion on Tosches and how his information should be treated "in the light of the source" two posts ago.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

"I don't "agree with him." I take it under advisement. I take possession of the information allowing for the source. I don't dismiss it out of hand like you do."

If you are not trolling but literally that stupid I will spell it out, as though for an infant or someone with learning difficulties.

" I don't "agree with him." I take it under advisement. I take possession of the information allowing for the source [which is compromised because of a scandal surrounding Tosches]. I don't dismiss [everything he ever said] out of hand like you do."

Quote:
You are still sitting on the fence about what you think happened to excuse Listons piss poor effort in both Clay fights aside to say there are a list of unproven theories weaker than him being inactive as to why he went from prime to old one fight.
Again, I will try to explain this to you like you are a small child.

When a big person is told a lot of different things and they all sound like they might be real, a big person might decide that he can't in good judgement make up his mind completely for one over the other.

For example, when you are demanding that the entire boxing world accepts that Liston quit dog in those two fights, I might bring up the fact that the original investigation, begun within days of the first fight, concluded within weeks of the first fight, found that Liston had suffered an "honest injury" that "there was no wrong doing". It went on to state that eight (Actually nine) doctors accepted Liston's story that after throwing a left hook "he heard something snap and lost control of his left arm." They also accepted that he continued to box despite considerable pain for some rounds before cracking.

The Miami Beach boxing commission, who set out determined to hang Liston, found overwhelmingly in his favour as did numerous medical professions. The week of the fight. Now, fifty years later, you want to throw all of this out based on...****, i'm not sure what you base it on?

Me, I treat the very reasonable amount of evidence that suggests that Liston was too hurt to continue cautiously. Why? Because there is a reasonable amount of evidence that Liston was forced to quit by the mob. And that Liston quit dog.

I'm sorry to say that despite some small investigation on my part, I don't have any hard opinion on the identity of Jack The Ripper - there are two very good suspects - the exact identity of William Shakespeare - there is much confusion - or exactly what happened to JFK.

It's not fence-sitting. It's an adult understanding of a complex situation that makes an absolutely determined point of view almost impossible. That you try to criticise this position in favour of yours, which seems to me to be described mostly by bias and also seems very ill informed, is ludicrous.


Quote:
The winners of the one round fights hit pretty lucky.
Absolute nonsense. Boxers who win in one round land their best punches in the first round. They are training for months to land those punches and do exactly what they trained to do. Only a really stupid boxing person or someone who doesn't know boxing would actually say that. It is a totally ridiculous indefensible claim which I utterly reject.

You are either trolling me or you don't understand fighting.
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Old 12-15-2013, 05:21 PM   #663
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Absolute nonsense. Boxers who win in one round land their best punches in the first round. They are training for months to land those punches and do exactly what they trained to do. Only a really stupid boxing person or someone who doesn't know boxing would actually say that. It is a totally ridiculous indefensible claim which I utterly reject.

You are either trolling me or you don't understand fighting.
Why the hell would I troll you? To be honest I had to look up what one was. I am not a an internet nerd. I know boxing. The point you talk about I can answer you from the perspective of a boxer. Ask any fighter who lost to Floyd when they would rather have fought him and I bet they say the nights he turned up to face Liston. Why? Because through a fighters eye it's obvious where Floyd was at on those nights. I hate to pull rank here, because in the most part boxing is not rocket science and for the most part a knowledgeable non participant can understand more than most but for things like this a fighter can smell it. Floyd was dead meat both times. I guarantee, you get a group of real experienced fighters and sit them down and ask them after watching those fights what they thought was going on with Patterson and they will say he looked psyched out. I hate saying it because you do no your stuff, but trust me he was psyched out.

Yes fighters train hard. It hurts. It's agony but for all that things can get into your head. People who live that life, done it been there know it. There are good night's and there are bad nights. If that is your life you can tell who is switched on. Floyd was switched off both times. Not his fault, not Listons fault. The man was not switched on. Both times

Last edited by choklab; 12-15-2013 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 12-15-2013, 06:13 PM   #664
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Why the hell would I troll you? To be honest I had to look up what one was. I am not a an internet nerd. I know boxing. The point you talk about I can answer you from the perspective of a boxer.
A boxer that thinks that a fighter who goes out to knock his opponent out in the first round and then knocks his opponent in the first round has struck it "hit it pretty lucky." Yes. Get a group of fighters together to discuss that one why don't you.

Quote:
Why? Because through a fighters eye it's obvious where Floyd was at on those nights. I hate to pull rank here, because in the most part boxing is not rocket science and for the most part a knowledgeable non participant can understand more than most but for things like this a fighter can smell it. Floyd was dead meat both times.
And I love that you presume to "pull rank" and that you think you're talking to a "non-participant." I look forwards to hearing about your failed world title shot in the near future.

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I guarantee, you get a group of real experienced fighters and sit them down and ask them after watching those fights what they thought was going on with Patterson and they will say he looked psyched out. I hate saying it because you do no your stuff, but trust me he was psyched out.
And I hate to say it, because I've spent most of the day pointing out your weird inability to absorb information that is written on your screen when you click the link but i've already acknowledged this possibility:

"You see, this whole exchange has been about what you mean by "psyched out" and you have just struggled desperately to tell me - you avoid the issue, you are non-responsive, you talk a lot of shit. I accept that Floyd was uncomfortable - Mike Tyson said recently that only Mexicans fight with the attitude that they knocked out the guy who knocked them out in the rematch. It's unlikely that even the toughest of fighters - and Floyd was fragile - can come into the ring after being brutalised without feeling some affects. Even Frazier was affected a bit.

But that affection isn't always bad. It can mean a variety of different things."

Look, i'm basically addressing you by copying and pasting parts of other posts that i've made that you've failed to address/notice/whatever I have no idea what else to say to you really, i spend as much time now helping you follow the thread as i do replying to what you write.

Quote:
Yes fighters train hard. It hurts. It's agony but for all that things can get into your head. People who live that life, done it been there know it. There are good night's and there are bad nights. If that is your life you can tell who is switched on. Floyd was switched off both times. Not his fault, not Listons fault. The man was not switched on. Both times
Surely you can see the folly of asking me to just take your word for it when I clearly have very little respect for your point of view? I mean I can't be any more clear: despite your attempts to paint yourself as some sort of boxing jedi in this last post, your opinion is almost meaningless to me. There is something strange about both your opinion of Marciano and Liston and you bang that drum endlessly, regardless of the provision of new information. That is probably pretty close to the definition of a troll if you read what you googled between the lines.



If i felt like it and if i thought you might be able to address the point, I might ask you to explain what you mean by "switched off". But you can't or won't explain it and i've already asked you multiple times. And you can't. So I guess that's that.
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Old 12-15-2013, 06:43 PM   #665
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
If i felt like it and if i thought you might be able to address the point, I might ask you to explain what you mean by "switched off". But you can't or won't explain it and i've already asked you multiple times. And you can't. So I guess that's thnat.
I can't tell you what switched off means? You don't know?

I'm answering each thing you say here. You keep telling me I'm not listening to you but I know I already explained this to you. Floyd was tense. Both times. It's as obvious as you pulling my chain.

You can warm up, you can have a great camp, the whole thing, but if the mind is not right that's it. You go out Switched off. You go out switched off, psyched out you get mowed down. Like Floyd did. find some fighters. Ask them. I dont know how clear you want me to be..
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Old 12-15-2013, 09:34 PM   #666
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but you have come across as rather lunatic.
Trust me you could never ever, be clever enough to hurt my feelings.

It's your arrogance that pisses me off. You are one of those imbeciles that manages to attain a status of deserved ridicule. ie:

If you were half as clever as you think you are, you would be twice as clever as you actually are.

I am absolutely sure you have your heroes, and for someone as insignificant as yourself, that is probably a good thing, it perhaps keeps you off the streets and stops you from causing problems for all the adequate people in your neighbourhood.

However you might like to try living your own life, rather than living others lives through osmosis.

Basically, you are an idiot FANBOY.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:51 AM   #667
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Foxy 01 View Post
Trust me you could never ever, be clever enough to hurt my feelings.

It's your arrogance that pisses me off. You are one of those imbeciles that manages to attain a status of deserved ridicule. ie:

If you were half as clever as you think you are, you would be twice as clever as you actually are.

I am absolutely sure you have your heroes, and for someone as insignificant as yourself, that is probably a good thing, it perhaps keeps you off the streets and stops you from causing problems for all the adequate people in your neighbourhood.

However you might like to try living your own life, rather than living others lives through osmosis.

Basically, you are an idiot FANBOY.


Foxy, you're embarrassing yourself here.

Again.
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:03 PM   #668
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
I can't tell you what switched off means? You don't know?
Have you not been a part of the conversation? Iis this a serious question?

Quote:
I'm answering each thing you say here. You keep telling me I'm not listening to you but I know I already explained this to you. Floyd was tense. Both times. It's as obvious as you pulling my chain.
You haven't answered anything - i'm totally dis-satisfied by your attempted answers. In fact you don't even seem to understand what it is you are talking about at this point.


I've been trying to get you to explain the technical symptoms displayed by Patterson that defines this "tension" for pages and pages, most especially in relation to other fights where Patterson is less aggressive than he was against Liston. But you just can't/won't do it. You also don't seem to understand that this has been happening, because you think you have been giving me complete answers (whilst assuring me of your pro status).

I'm not so much yanking your chain as preparing your noose.

Last edited by McGrain; 12-16-2013 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:39 PM   #669
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Have you not been a part of the conversation? Iis this a serious question?



You haven't answered anything - i'm totally dis-satisfied by your attempted answers. In fact you don't even seem to understand what it is you are talking about at this point.


I've been trying to get you to explain the technical symptoms displayed by Patterson that defines this "tension" for pages and pages, most especially in relation to other fights where Patterson is less aggressive than he was against Liston. But you just can't/won't do it. You also don't seem to understand that this has been happening, because you think you have been giving me complete answers (whilst assuring me of your pro status).

I'm not so much yanking your chain as preparing your noose.
Technical symptoms of being psyched out? In relation to other fights? I know what you want, you want me to say I can't offer you anything other than my opinion because there is no technical detector or contraption that can prove the technical symptom of being psyched out. Well fighting is not like that. Where is the technical detector for glass jaw or a world class punch? Or a phantom punch?

Patterson appeared tense waiting for the bell, but as you say Floyd had a look about him in other fights, to me this is a difference. Once the fight got going he did not look loose. Other times he was looser than this. You could argue he got caught before he settled down but it is more than that. In other fights he may have moved defensively but not quite so as tense. Not so one punch at a time like. The second fight was even worse than the first fight, there seemed no spring at all. If anything it was the first fight he showed more conviction to respond to the situation, the tension was stalling him from the word go. He fell apart, that's the truth. By comparison Liston was instinctive, Sonny was responding like a hungry animal. Floyd was responding like a car with bad spark plugs, even if he showed a few moves.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:52 PM   #670
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Technical symptoms of being psyched out? In relation to other fights?
Of course!! Look, I watched quite a bit of boxing this weekend. By your standards, Broner was "psyched out" against Maidana in the first round. He behaved very much like Floyd. I just don't think there is enough physical footage to make the hard deductions you are making.

Quote:
I know what you want, you want me to say I can't offer you anything other than my opinion because there is no technical detector or contraption that can prove the technical symptom of being psyched out.
No, I want you to explain yourself. It's not unreasonable, nothing strange about this, and if you can't or won't do it - say that. Don't mealy mouth for page after page after page.

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Well boxing doesn't work like that.

Of course it does. I understand the differences in the behaviour of Spinks in Spinks-Tyson relating to every other first round I saw him fight.

And if it doesn't work like that, what was with that half-assed technical breakdown you provided on Patterson-Johansson III trying to do exactly what you just said you can't do because boxing doesn't work like that?

Your posts are riddled with inconstancies and contradictions.


Quote:
Patterson appeared tense waiting for the bell, but as you say Floyd had a look about him in other fights, to me this is a difference.
So it was the same but different?

In the end you've just written the same thing again in this post, which is what you do year on year, but it means very little. "Floyd was responding like a car with bad spark plugs." What the f*ck, you expect me to read this shit and go, "ah yes, now I understand."

To me, Floyd looks about the same as he did at the start of Bonavena and others. This is how he fought against punchers sometimes. This is how he sometimes boxed. He is fluid enough to slip jab after jab he is fluid enough to land a springing left hook, he isn't in full flow, because like 800,000 other fighters (not an exact number before you start asking me about it at the expense of every other point in the post) he took more than 100 seconds to establish his normal rhythm. Liston, for that matter, isn't loose either.

Floyd was probably intimidated, was boxing accordingly. Dempsey was intimidated against Willard by his own admission and boxed very cautiously for the first minute. If Willard had caught him with his uppercut and got KTFO, you would be telling people he couldn't fight properly in that fight.


I believe that Patterson's strategy was fine (you seemed to have claimed that it was both too aggressive and not aggressive enough in this thread) and I think that his caution was normal in the circumstances.

And you certainly haven't shown any different.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:27 PM   #671
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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So it was the same but different?
He proberbly did the same stuff but the difference was he was more tense. Not responding fast enough for it to be the same.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:28 PM   #672
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

There have been many fightesr that lost due to a combination of circumstances that was not typical of them either before or after even though Floyd was dropped often and KO'd and dropped prior to Liston numerous times & KO'd by INGO it was not his MO, Floyd grew from the loss and I can compare him to George Foreman in overcoming his weakness but IMO his loss to Liston a combination of poor mindset,wrong style opponent, wrong fight-plan...the best strategy for Floyd vs a puncher would be to get out of the early rounds and hope the opponent would fall into your plan but lets not forget Floyd was getting dropped and was recently KO'd shortly before

I remember reading Floyds book years ago and Cus's opinion that he should avoid guys like Liston had to sit on his mind or at least his subconscious mind. It is common knowledge at the time that Cus would have kept Floyd at the lower weight until Marciano retired because he felt these were the wrong guys for Floyd to fight.

funny but Cus did not fear punchers when he had Tyson but his biggest fear was Tyson hurting himself by losing focus & mental strength

credit to Cus he knew his fighters

A big part of boxing is mental, I don't think anyone can deny that, not all mental but a large part...I think in the Marciano-Walcott 2, Tyson-Spinks, Liston Patterson,and Ali-Liston among others the mind played a strong part as well as other factors
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:35 PM   #673
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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He proberbly did the same stuff but the difference was he was more tense. Not responding fast enough for it to be the same.
Then how to explain his superb defensive work, or his snapping left hand on offence? If you're saying that he's slow, why is he so fast?

Patterson gets hit ONCE and things go wrong. He was always going to get hit properly once, early. It's not tension. It's related physicality.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:42 PM   #674
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Of course!! Look, I watched quite a bit of boxing this weekend. By your standards, Broner was "psyched out" against Maidana in the first round. He behaved very much like Floyd. I just don't think there is enough physical footage to make the hard deductions you are making..
I saw that fight too. Broner fought with more confidence than Floyd, he was taking a beating but he had a stupid look about him like he still thought he was in charge. That was not Patterson against Sonny at all! Broner was keeping out of the way but his body language could not have been more different. He was under fire but there was more defiance and control of his senses. He did not crumble. HE kept reacting under fire and kept it together in the first round. Floyd could not because he did not look like he was reacting corectly, he might have made a few moves but under fire he was a shambles. It's not just the power of the punches or the strength of Liston, it's the delay in the responses. Some of the blows were glancing but the effect was more because Floyd was too static on impact. He was bracing himself for impact.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:53 PM   #675
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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I saw that fight too. Broner fought with more confidence than Floyd, he was taking a beating but he had a stupid look about him like he still thought he was in charge.
I don't think he was that intimidated either, but he throws fewer punches in three minutes than Patterson does in two, initiates many, many more clinches, backpedals much more quickly than is normal for him. Inactivity, running and clinching are all recognised signs of an intimidated fighter. Patterson exhibits none of these, Broner exhibits all of them.

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That was not Patterson against Sonny at all! Broner was keeping out of the way but his body language could not have been more different.
So this, basically, is about body language for you?
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