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Old 01-03-2014, 07:27 PM   #31
Foxy 01
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
Please describe the fights you are referring to please? The Mathis fight where Frazier swept every round from the 2nd on? The Quarry fights? I hear this all the time...rather than a generality give an example...Again, having studied Frazier's career numerous times, this is vastly overplayed and not consistent with actually in ring performance. IMHO of course...I am always willing to learn something new.
Oh I don't think you are. I'd say you pretty much think you know most things anyway.

However why don't you start with the 3 obvious examples, just to keep it easy. Do you reckon Joe took the early rounds in ANY of the Ali fights?

Of course we KNOW for sure he didn't in the Foreman fight now don't we?

We can always talk about him getting floored in the first by Mike Bruce, and dropped twice in the 2nd by Bonavena later if you like.

Last edited by Foxy 01; 01-03-2014 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:51 PM   #32
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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It's arguably the greatest pressure fighting heavyweight champion of all time, a power puncher with notorious determination and stamina, who got up six times with a prime George Foreman against a failed contender to any major title in an era where three existed, and an asthmatic one at that. Razor's puncher's chance is barely existent and winning by decision is about as likely as being shot by a bullet with your name carved into it-twice. I'm just saying.
I'm tired of this being brought up as some kind of achievement. If the ref doesn't interfere in that fight, Foreman knocks him out cold, possibly ends his career. Once badly hurt, Frazier was there for the taking. He had very poor survival skills. And Ruddock's puncher's chance is much more than barely existent here.
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Old 01-03-2014, 08:21 PM   #33
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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You might be able to say Frazier, but against an opponent like Ruddock I am not sure you could say with very little doubt. Prime Frazier (Of whom I may be his biggest fan) took 11 rounds to dispatch Mathis who is certainly not Ruddock's superior....went the distance with Bonavena in that same time frame. I do think Frazier gets underrated on this forum and that is without considering the moronic elroy! But Ruddock was not an easy out for anyone!
Mathis wasnt as strong as Ruddock but he was smarter, moved better wasnt as easy to find. A better boxing big man than Razor was. That`s one of the reasons Joe took till the 11 to put him Mathis out.

Ruddock was one handed. I was a huge fan of his and basically once he realized he had power he stopped boxing and was a stationary bomber with poor balance.

Not saying he didnt have good boxing potential as as prospect but he never realized it.
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:06 PM   #34
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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Oh I don't think you are. I'd say you pretty much think you know most things anyway.

However why don't you start with the 3 obvious examples, just to keep it easy. Do you reckon Joe took the early rounds in ANY of the Ali fights?

Of course we KNOW for sure he didn't in the Foreman fight now don't we?

We can always talk about him getting floored in the first by Mike Bruce, and dropped twice in the 2nd by Bonavena later if you like.
I know you don't feel that I am interested in both discussing this as well as better clarifying my thoughts...that is fine....I will leave that for you and your boy elroy.

However on the serious discussion part.....If we are looking at how fast a prime Frazier started a prime I find from 68 Mathis - 71 Ali perhaps beginning to reach that level as early as 67 Chuvalo but it was clear in 72 that Frazier was declining even before fighting Foreman in 73 (and for the record I am not sure a prime Frazier does much if any better against Foreman!). Bruce...I am not going to look at Frazier's 2nd fight in determining how fast he started any more than I would use Hopkins first fight as any type of barometer of his career.

Bonavena is the only legitimate fight outside of Ali 1 you listed....

Frazier Bonavena I- Anyone I know scores the first for Frazier....and yes he got caught in the 2nd....but after 3 rounds is up 2-1 on the cards, and on most cards Frazier wins 7 of the first 8 rounds...Not sure that describes a slow starter.

Frazier Ali I 1 judge had Frazier up 2-1 the other 2 had Ali up 2-1....not sure this depicts a slow start?

I might say similar to Tito he had an over anxious, aggressive sometimes off balanced beginning that left him susceptible to getting caught and sometimes dropped early...not sure that translates into a slow starter?
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Old 01-04-2014, 12:00 AM   #35
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

Tyson was more powerful than Frazier and more explosive punch for punch with that said one of the reasons that I think Joe has a good shot to stop Ruddock where Tyson didn`t is because Frazier didn`t slow down in the middle/late rounds.

He kept working on the inside, even picked up the pace when most heavyweights start to wilt. I don`t think Frazier rests inside and lets Ruddock off the hook the way Tyson did at that time.

Remember that wasnt a peak Tyson that Razor Ruddock fought it was still a formidable version but he more or less just a bomber by that time. Not the precision or the conditioning he had during his championship reign.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:18 AM   #36
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

Nearly every great heavyweight champion, was hurt/knocked down or out, in there early careers. Joe was no different. He was beaten by 2 men in his career. They just happen to be in alot of pundits top 5 greatest heavyweights of all time list.

Joe Frazier, of 71 FOTC time was a wrecking machine, who could go all night. Ali, couldn't keep him off him. Joe would bob and weave, and pound the hell out of Ruddocks gut. Joe is keeping this fight inside. Razor, in his career was never attacked like Joe Frazier would attack him. Joe Frazier, is in my top 10 heavyweight list. Razor Ruddock while a notable fighter....would get smoked.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:21 AM   #37
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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Originally Posted by ETM View Post
Tyson was more powerful than Frazier and more explosive punch for punch with that said one of the reasons that I think Joe has a good shot to stop Ruddock where Tyson didn`t is because Frazier didn`t slow down in the middle/late rounds.

He kept working on the inside, even picked up the pace when most heavyweights start to wilt. I don`t think Frazier rests inside and lets Ruddock off the hook the way Tyson did at that time.

Remember that wasnt a peak Tyson that Razor Ruddock fought it was still a formidable version but he more or less just a bomber by that time. Not the precision or the conditioning he had during his championship reign.
spot on.

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Old 01-04-2014, 02:09 PM   #38
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
You might be able to say Frazier, but against an opponent like Ruddock I am not sure you could say with very little doubt. Prime Frazier (Of whom I may be his biggest fan) took 11 rounds to dispatch Mathis who is certainly not Ruddock's superior....went the distance with Bonavena in that same time frame. I do think Frazier gets underrated on this forum and that is without considering the moronic elroy! But Ruddock was not an easy out for anyone!

Best fighters that Ruddock beat? Bonecrusher, Weaver, Dokes, a faded Page....not great but decent scalps comparable to anyone Frazier beat outside of Ali.

Ruddock was not a 1 armed nor predictable fighter by any means....unless you never heard or him nor watched him prior to Tyson. Ruddock was a bad man....by my estimation he had already begun to slip around the time of the Bonecrusher fight...after that he turned into a head hunting power puncher seeking that 1 big blow.....Which works fine on limited challengers but not the elite. Watch some earlier stuff and you will discover his arsenal is not as limited as you make it out be.

So-so chin...wow? I am not even a Ruddock fan (although I guess you could call me an appreciator), but have you watched the blows he absorbed against Tyson alone? Wow...I don't even know how to respond to this?

A 32 y/o vary faded and skill eroded Ruddock is who Morrison beat....How do you think Morrison would do vs a Prime Ruddock?
Weaver , Dokes, Page were all waaaaayyyy over the hill when Ruddock beat them, also if the guy was SHOT, by the time he was only 32, that right there says he wasn't very good to begin with, just a basic journeyman, yea and the blows he took against Tyson stopped him in the 1st fight, and he was knocked down, 2x and had his jaw broken in the 2nd fight, and was clearly over his head, yea he can take punishment, so what? a lot of heavyweight's can, that just proves Ruddock had no defense, and one shot from Lewis put his lights out
In 1995, both Ruddock and Morrison were close to their prime, you can even say Morrison peaked in 1993, after the Foreman fight, and Morrison cleaned his clock, Tommy was clearly the superior fighter...
I think Ruddock who was on the Joe Hipp level, was waayyyyy over-rated for what ever reason i don't know, but who ever Dave Jaco was, KO'D him as well, i just don't think the guy was as good as people make him out to be...
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:43 PM   #39
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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if the guy was SHOT, by the time he was only 32, that right there says he wasn't very good to begin with, just a basic journeyman,...
???? a lot of guys are shot by 32???? Frazier was shot @32 so I guess that makes hima journeyman as well...@ least elroy will agree with you there.

Weird that you say he can take a punch when my response initial post centered around rebuffing the opposite claim that he was chinny.
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:39 PM   #40
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
I know you don't feel that I am interested in both discussing this as well as better clarifying my thoughts...that is fine....I will leave that for you and your boy elroy.

However on the serious discussion part.....If we are looking at how fast a prime Frazier started a prime I find from 68 Mathis - 71 Ali perhaps beginning to reach that level as early as 67 Chuvalo but it was clear in 72 that Frazier was declining even before fighting Foreman in 73 (and for the record I am not sure a prime Frazier does much if any better against Foreman!). Bruce...I am not going to look at Frazier's 2nd fight in determining how fast he started any more than I would use Hopkins first fight as any type of barometer of his career.

Bonavena is the only legitimate fight outside of Ali 1 you listed....

Frazier Bonavena I- Anyone I know scores the first for Frazier....and yes he got caught in the 2nd....but after 3 rounds is up 2-1 on the cards, and on most cards Frazier wins 7 of the first 8 rounds...Not sure that describes a slow starter.

Frazier Ali I 1 judge had Frazier up 2-1 the other 2 had Ali up 2-1....not sure this depicts a slow start?

I might say similar to Tito he had an over anxious, aggressive sometimes off balanced beginning that left him susceptible to getting caught and sometimes dropped early...not sure that translates into a slow starter?
I'm not interested in arguing with your opinions. I gave you 6 examples of Joe not getting off to a quick start and an early lead off the top of my head. I do consider them to be evidence enough of being something of a slow starter.

I am further saying that Ruddock has the size and strength to manhandle Joe and shove him off like Foreman did to create space to land his " smash " I also said that could happen early simply because Joe could be caught early. I also strongly believe that should that punch land it would put him in the same condition as Foremans punches did.

You, however seem to be of a very strong opinion that Ruddock has no chance of doing such.
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:42 PM   #41
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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You, however seem to be of a very strong opinion that Ruddock has no chance of doing such.
Then your comprehension and reading skills are equally eroded and/or non-existent....I am one who thinks Ruddock would lose, but by no means have I made that a foregone conclusion!
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:43 PM   #42
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

I don't think Frazier was a particularly slow starter he just wasn't a fast one. He had 14 stoppage wins within four rounds and several within the first two. Compare that to someone who was really a slow starter like Salvador Sanchez who had about 8 (in more fights) and had several bouts in which he rallied for victory in the championship rounds.
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:07 PM   #43
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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I don't think Frazier was a particularly slow starter he just wasn't a fast one. He had 14 stoppage wins within four rounds and several within the first two. Compare that to someone who was really a slow starter like Salvador Sanchez who had about 8 (in more fights) and had several bouts in which he rallied for victory in the championship rounds.
Loved Ruddock but I personally do not see Frazier as overrated and can't see Ruddock handling Fraziers smoke. Tyson is stronger, bigger, faster and hit harder but this fight is not about power it is about Fraziers perpetual motion and non stop aggression that outpoints Ruddock.
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:15 PM   #44
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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I don't think Frazier was a particularly slow starter he just wasn't a fast one. He had 14 stoppage wins within four rounds and several within the first two. Compare that to someone who was really a slow starter like Salvador Sanchez who had about 8 (in more fights) and had several bouts in which he rallied for victory in the championship rounds.
How dare you try to use facts logic and reasoning on this forum....I kind of like the way foxy stretches reality more than this type of behavior! I am very disappointed....We may have to revoke your Corro fanclub membership.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:04 PM   #45
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Default Re: prime razor ruddock vs joe frazier of 71 ???

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How dare you try to use facts logic and reasoning on this forum....I kind of like the way foxy stretches reality more than this type of behavior! I am very disappointed....We may have to revoke your Corro fanclub membership.
Watch me redeem myself. Frazier was a one handed fighter. Never even landed a right hand in his career; just an extreme feint.
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