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Old 06-10-2014, 06:30 PM   #16
edward morbius
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Valdes was still # 6 by Ring Magazine when Patterson took on London. And in the beginning of 1959, he was # 2 by Ring Magazine.

Your right. Valdes hadn't taken on Alonzo Johnson yet. The defense against London was on May 1. The fight between Valdes and Johnson was on May 29.

I am certain that Valdes had dropped out of the ratings by the time he fought Liston which was in August because I remember the write-up done by Nat Fleischer in TV Guide which always included the total records of the fighters as well as their current ratings (with unranked if not ranked) and Valdes was unranked. It has been 55 years since I read up on this upcoming fight but my memory is that Liston was then ranked #4.

I watched the fight. My memory (and don't forget this is after 55 years) is that Liston backed up Valdes against the ropes and hit him a left-right combo. I remember the right mainly. Valdes dropped straight down the ropes into a sitting position. He was sitting there as the count went by with a trickle of blood coming out of the left side of his mouth and going down his chin. At about eight or nine he tried to get up, but his gloves were still on the canvas at ten.

By the way, I was watching this fight on a 21 inch black and white Philco. Not like a modern HD TV.

*I don't think there was any chance of Valdes getting the shot at Patterson after his KO loss to Powell, regardless of ranking, until he won a couple. The network wouldn't have bought it. Powell would then actually have been the more logical challenger. I have to look at London's record over at boxrec, but if memory serves he had lost his last fight to Cooper.

Last edited by edward morbius; 06-10-2014 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:55 PM   #17
edward morbius
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Valdes was ranked # 6 by Ring Magazine in May of 1959


Anyone notice how Valdes tore through Europe throughout the 50s? I mean he absolutely hammered good european Heavyweight. Knocked out Heinz Neuhas, Flattened Joe Erskine in 1 round, beat the crap out of Don cokkell, Stopped Brian London, Dick Richardson easy work.
All this might tell you more about the Euros than it does about Valdes, really.

After all from late 1952 to the Liston fight he lost to Moore twice, Baker twice, Harold Johnson by a shutout, Bill Gilliam, Bob Satterfield, Eddie Machen twice, Zora Folley, Alex Miteff, Charley Powell, and Alonzo Johnson.

Valdes is going to be a hard sell as a contender to the American public, and listing Euros obscure for the most part to Americans won't do it.

I can see how the undefeated Harris, with some good wins, would be an easier sell to the public, and the fight did draw well.

And, by the way, Harris performed better against Bob Baker and Charley Powell than Valdes did. It might be dubious that Valdes was the better fighter from 1956 on.
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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Choklab...how good was Liston ? Was his peak around 1960?
I know his age was a controversy.....from my understanding when he fought Ali he had aged..plus inactivity..he had only 2 x 1 round Patterson bashings in around 2 and a half years before be fought Ali...plus once champion he hit the high life etc....should he have been champ sooner..say 1959 and maybe had 7 -10 defences before Ali came along...thus Liston would be remembered as a good champ rather than a brief one ?
Well, he had Patterson's #, that's for sure. Liston was good, actually he was great, but he's one of those guys who tends to get overrated on this forum.

On the way up he had tough fights with Johnny Summerlin x2 and Marty Marshall. He went 2-1 vs. Marshall and suffered a broken jaw in the loss, Marshall was little more than a LHW.

He stopped Cleveland Williams x2, Zora Folley, and Patterson x2. He decisioned Eddie Machen in a competitive fight. Williams was nothing special to be honest. Folley was a good boxer but not the most durable. Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ in history (look it up if you don't believe me). Ali made him look slow and predictable.

Liston was much bigger than most of the guys he fought. Folley and Machen were roughly 6' and 200 Lbs, Machen was more durable than Folley though. Patterson was close in size to these guys as well but a bit lighter. Williams was taller and close in weight to Liston but in my opinion one of the most overrated HW contenders of all-time.

I'm not saying Liston wasn't great, but let's not pretend that he did more than what he actually did. Nino? Nino wasn't all that special on his best day. When Nino fought Liston it was far from his best day. That win means very little to me.

So, let's pretend Liston beat Patterson in 1959. Maybe Liston defends against Johansson. Johansson was very good. He stopped Machen in the 1st round and Patterson in the 3rd round. Sure, Patterson stopped him twice as well. Liston wins, probably by KO, but it's not easy.

Tom McNeeley wouldn't stand a chance against Liston. Mcneeley was down 11 times vs. Patterson and was stopped in the 4th round.

Liston did stop Roy Harris in the 1st round in 1960. Harris lost by 12th round KO to Patterson in 1958.

Brian London wasn't anything special. Patterson stopped him in the 11th, Machen in the 5th, Ali stopped him in the 3rd a few years later.

Maybe rematches with Folley and Machen?

Who else could Liston have fought prior to Ali? There wasn't a fighter around that could have properly prepared Liston for Ali.

Pad the stats however you want, Ali is still kicking his azs.
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:35 AM   #19
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman View Post
Well, he had Patterson's #, that's for sure. Liston was good, actually he was great, but he's one of those guys who tends to get overrated on this forum.

On the way up he had tough fights with Johnny Summerlin x2 and Marty Marshall. He went 2-1 vs. Marshall and suffered a broken jaw in the loss, Marshall was little more than a LHW.

He stopped Cleveland Williams x2, Zora Folley, and Patterson x2. He decisioned Eddie Machen in a competitive fight. Williams was nothing special to be honest. Folley was a good boxer but not the most durable. Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ in history (look it up if you don't believe me). Ali made him look slow and predictable.

Liston was much bigger than most of the guys he fought. Folley and Machen were roughly 6' and 200 Lbs, Machen was more durable than Folley though. Patterson was close in size to these guys as well but a bit lighter. Williams was taller and close in weight to Liston but in my opinion one of the most overrated HW contenders of all-time.

I'm not saying Liston wasn't great, but let's not pretend that he did more than what he actually did. Nino? Nino wasn't all that special on his best day. When Nino fought Liston it was far from his best day. That win means very little to me.

So, let's pretend Liston beat Patterson in 1959. Maybe Liston defends against Johansson. Johansson was very good. He stopped Machen in the 1st round and Patterson in the 3rd round. Sure, Patterson stopped him twice as well. Liston wins, probably by KO, but it's not easy.

Tom McNeeley wouldn't stand a chance against Liston. Mcneeley was down 11 times vs. Patterson and was stopped in the 4th round.

Liston did stop Roy Harris in the 1st round in 1960. Harris lost by 12th round KO to Patterson in 1958.

Brian London wasn't anything special. Patterson stopped him in the 11th, Machen in the 5th, Ali stopped him in the 3rd a few years later.

Maybe rematches with Folley and Machen?

Who else could Liston have fought prior to Ali? There wasn't a fighter around that could have properly prepared Liston for Ali.

Pad the stats however you want, Ali is still kicking his azs.
Good post.

Prior to Ali I think Ernie Terrell, Doug Jones and Eddie machen would have been good prep for Liston against Ali. They certainly would not have been blow outs for Liston giving him more rounds and much needed competition.
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Old 06-11-2014, 10:28 AM   #20
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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On the way up he had tough fights with Johnny Summerlin x2 and Marty Marshall. He went 2-1 vs. Marshall and suffered a broken jaw in the loss, Marshall was little more than a LHW.

Johnny Summerlin was a good, consistent top 10 ranked contender throughout the 1950s. Summerlin was a swarmer with a nice motor, strong, and nice body attack. These are very good wins for Liston at that early stage of his career. How many heavyweights do you know are capable of beating a Johnny Summerlin caliber fighter in only their 5th pro fight?


"John Summerlin of Detroit, Michigan's ranking heavyweight, was no match for Charles Liston, former International Golden Gloves heavyweight champion from St. Louis. Liston pounded out a unanimous decision in the eight round televised main event at Motor City Arena Tuesday night. The St. Louis slugger who weighed 206 pounds carried the fight through most of the early rounds and finished with added glory by staggering Summerlin, 193, into a corner during an explosive final round." - United Press


As for Marshall, Liston battered him easily in 2 consecutive rematches winning nearly every round in both encounters. Again, Liston had less than 10 pro fights when these fighters took place. Liston was still very raw in 1954.



Quote:
Williams was nothing special to be honest.
He was a 6'3 215lb monster of a man in a era of small heavyweights, and he had an abundance of Power and Speed to go along with his size. I would say that makes him very dangerous. Williams would become a top 5 rated contender the next 4 years in a row. Not many men wanted to take on Cleveland Williams. His size, power, speed was too much of a threat.

"Williams is tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen

Quote:
Folley was a good boxer but not the most durable.
Folley was a terrific top rated heavyweight contender in his prime. He may have had durabiliy issues, but he made up for it with sound defensive skills, very smooth movement/skills, awesome left jab, and a pinpoint straight right hand.

Eddie Machen was another very good top rated contender in his prime. A high ring IQ, great technical boxer, very fundamentally sound defense, and fast hands capable of scoring points on offense.

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Nino? Nino wasn't all that special on his best day. When Nino fought Liston it was far from his best day. That win means very little to me.
Why is that? Nino was a big 6'3 215lb heavyweight who still packed a powerful punch. Just 8 months prior to the fight, Valdes was the number 2 ranked heavyweight contender in the world coming off some big wins over top 10 contenders. Valdes was past his prime when he took on Liston, but the last thing to leave a fighter is his punch. Valdes still was a big powerful heavyweight when he met Liston, and he was able to close Listons eye in the 2nd round. I think this win has merit to it. Any time you beat a dangerous puncher, it should count.

"Sonny was the strongest man I ever fought and he was very tough. When I fought him I was past my prime, but I could still could hit very hard "- Nino Valdes

Also don't forget Liston beat Roy Harris and Mike DeJohn. DeJohn was a top 10 contender when Liston beat him. DeJohn was a tall(6'4) dangerous puncher with a powerful left hook. He rocked Liston at one point, but Liston ended up beating him down in 6. Harris was a solid top 10 contender who gave Floyd Patterson a rough go in a title fight. Harris was crushed in 1 round. Wayne Bethea was a top 10 contender who was bombed out in 1 round by Liston. Bethea had never been stopped before.

Quote:
. Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ in history (look it up if you don't believe me).
Patterson was an ATG heavyweight in his prime, with a rare combination of handspeed and power never seen before. Liston destroyed him twice.


Quote:
So, let's pretend Liston beat Patterson in 1959. Maybe Liston defends against Johansson. Johansson was very good
Johannson wanted no part of Liston, and was not in Listons league. I think Liston ends it early. Johansson vs Williams would have been a more competitive fight.

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 06-11-2014 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 06-11-2014, 04:02 PM   #21
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Johannson wanted no part of Liston, and was not in Listons league. I think Liston ends it early. Johansson vs Williams would have been a more competitive fight.
In 1959 Johansson was some fighter by anyone's standard. He knocked out the two best heavyweights in the world and neither fighter had been knocked out before. On that form I think it is silly to say ingo was not in another fighters league, in fact he was setting the standard.

Why should ingo v Williams be more competative? Williams drew with the same guy machen knocked out in a single round.

I don't think ingo was ever that good again but in 1959 he set the standard.
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Old 06-11-2014, 05:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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On that form I think it is silly to say ingo was not in another fighters league
Liston knocks Johansson out in under 3 rounds in 1959
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Old 06-11-2014, 05:37 PM   #23
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

Ingo does not match up well with Liston. He's not the boxer nor the puncher in the match.
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Old 06-11-2014, 07:01 PM   #24
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Liston knocks Johansson out in under 3 rounds in 1959
Yet in 1959 trial horse willi Besmanoff with an American record of 5-11 in his last 16 stood on his feet and lasted all the way into round 7 against Liston before he got stopped on a cut??
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Old 06-11-2014, 07:38 PM   #25
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Johnny Summerlin was a good, consistent top 10 ranked contender throughout the 1950s. Summerlin was a swarmer with a nice motor, strong, and nice body attack. These are very good wins for Liston at that early stage of his career. How many heavyweights do you know are capable of beating a Johnny Summerlin caliber fighter in only their 5th pro fight?


"John Summerlin of Detroit, Michigan's ranking heavyweight, was no match for Charles Liston, former International Golden Gloves heavyweight champion from St. Louis. Liston pounded out a unanimous decision in the eight round televised main event at Motor City Arena Tuesday night. The St. Louis slugger who weighed 206 pounds carried the fight through most of the early rounds and finished with added glory by staggering Summerlin, 193, into a corner during an explosive final round." - United Press


As for Marshall, Liston battered him easily in 2 consecutive rematches winning nearly every round in both encounters. Again, Liston had less than 10 pro fights when these fighters took place. Liston was still very raw in 1954.





He was a 6'3 215lb monster of a man in a era of small heavyweights, and he had an abundance of Power and Speed to go along with his size. I would say that makes him very dangerous. Williams would become a top 5 rated contender the next 4 years in a row. Not many men wanted to take on Cleveland Williams. His size, power, speed was too much of a threat.

"Williams is tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen



Folley was a terrific top rated heavyweight contender in his prime. He may have had durabiliy issues, but he made up for it with sound defensive skills, very smooth movement/skills, awesome left jab, and a pinpoint straight right hand.

Eddie Machen was another very good top rated contender in his prime. A high ring IQ, great technical boxer, very fundamentally sound defense, and fast hands capable of scoring points on offense.



Why is that? Nino was a big 6'3 215lb heavyweight who still packed a powerful punch. Just 8 months prior to the fight, Valdes was the number 2 ranked heavyweight contender in the world coming off some big wins over top 10 contenders. Valdes was past his prime when he took on Liston, but the last thing to leave a fighter is his punch. Valdes still was a big powerful heavyweight when he met Liston, and he was able to close Listons eye in the 2nd round. I think this win has merit to it. Any time you beat a dangerous puncher, it should count.

"Sonny was the strongest man I ever fought and he was very tough. When I fought him I was past my prime, but I could still could hit very hard "- Nino Valdes

Also don't forget Liston beat Roy Harris and Mike DeJohn. DeJohn was a top 10 contender when Liston beat him. DeJohn was a tall(6'4) dangerous puncher with a powerful left hook. He rocked Liston at one point, but Liston ended up beating him down in 6. Harris was a solid top 10 contender who gave Floyd Patterson a rough go in a title fight. Harris was crushed in 1 round. Wayne Bethea was a top 10 contender who was bombed out in 1 round by Liston. Bethea had never been stopped before.



Patterson was an ATG heavyweight in his prime, with a rare combination of handspeed and power never seen before. Liston destroyed him twice.




Johannson wanted no part of Liston, and was not in Listons league. I think Liston ends it early. Johansson vs Williams would have been a more competitive fight.
Good in their day... not all-time good though. Summerlin and Marshall were early in his career but let's not pretend that he didn't struggle with these men. Good? No, neither was really that good. They were also not big men, especially Marshall who was about 180 Lbs.

DeJohn, Harris, Nino, even Williams... I stand by what I said. Who did they beat? Williams' best performances were KO7 Ernie Terrrell and D10 Eddie Machen. He lost a SD to Terrell in their rematch. He was stopped by Bob Satterfield (KO3). Williams was a late sub vs. Satterfield. Williams beat a lot of dudes with losing records and a bunch who were close to a .500 avg. Frankie Daniels x2, Wayne Bethea, Billy Daniels x2 and Alex Miteff... the only one he stopped was Miteff (KO5).

Yes, Machen and Folley were very good though. I really liked them both. Machen and Folley would make good CWs but were too small too compete well with the likes of Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, and others.
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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DeJohn, Harris, Nino, even Williams... I stand by what I said. Who did they beat?
Williams knocked out Ernie Terrell..One of the best contenders of the 1960s, and future WBA heavyweight champion. Williams arguably got robbed in the rematch, most of the press favored Williams in the decision. I saw the fight, I thought Williams won on my scorecard 6 rounds to 4. Williams-Machen was another questionable decision, with most of the press favoring Williams on their scorecard. Still, a draw means Williams did not lose the fight. Williams pretty much battled on even terms 1-1-1 with two of the best contenders of the 1960s Eddie Machen and Ernie Terrell.

Here is a recap of the Williams-Miteff fight


"Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." -United Press International
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Old 06-11-2014, 10:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Williams knocked out Ernie Terrell..One of the best contenders of the 1960s, and future WBA heavyweight champion. Williams arguably got robbed in the rematch, most of the press favored Williams in the decision. I saw the fight, I thought Williams won on my scorecard 6 rounds to 4. Williams-Machen was another questionable decision, with most of the press favoring Williams on their scorecard. Still, a draw means Williams did not lose the fight. Williams pretty much battled on even terms 1-1-1 with two of the best contenders of the 1960s Eddie Machen and Ernie Terrell.

Here is a recap of the Williams-Miteff fight


"Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." -United Press International
I know this is all true... but good at that moment and good "all-time" are two different things. In retrospect beating Miteff doesn't mean much, it meant something at the time though.

Kinda like Lennox Lewis beating Michael Grant or Ken Norton beating Duane Bobick or even Boone Kirkman.
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Old 06-12-2014, 01:48 AM   #28
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Default Re: Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

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Ingo does not match up well with Liston. He's not the boxer nor the puncher in the match.
I don't know how anyone can know for sure. I give Sonny the edge but ingo with his 1959 form could have been a real danger to Liston who often got clocked with right hands. Whitehurst, marshal, Ali, Folley and later martin were successful with right hand counters ..... ingo's party trick!
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