Harry Greb vs Hasim Ramhan

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Senya13

1. His defense was so good that he got knocked out several times.

You might want to factor in the quality of oposition, and frequency with which he fought there.

The thing is many other fighters gave Greb more troubles with their defense than Walker did.

Sure.

That is not to say that Walkers defence is weak however.

Who else outboxed Ruiz? Not counting the close fights where he was either robbed (Values, Kobozev) or it could go either way (Nicholson, Chagaev).

Kirk Johnson, Andrew Golotta, how many do you want?

3. Sharkey is a B-level fighter. Johnny Risko is a C-level fighter.

Jack Sharkey was a lineal heavyweight champion who was rightly regarded as the best in the world at one point. By no stretch of the imagination can he be described as a B level fighter.

Johnny Risko was the bookies favourite to suceed Tunney as champion when he retired. He and Sharkey were the consensus top two heavyweights in the world at ythis point.

The notion that wither of them is a B or C level fighter is extroardinary.

4. Sharkey looks poor on film. Footwork, defense, offense, all average at best.

I strongly disagree.

If you are impresed with Ruiz on film then Sharkey must look god like by comparison. However positive a slant you try to put on it Ruiz cannot do much and what he can do he dose poorley.

What am I missing?

[Senya13]

Quality of opposition? Frequency? He fought 7 times between April and December 1914, and got knocked out first by Bill Watkins 6-6-1, then by Kid Wagner 9-8-1.

Walker's defense was much worse than Jones' or Toney's. It was too bad to be able to avoid getting hit cleanly even by relatively slow super heavyweights. And even if he managed to avoid that (highly unlikely), he'd not be able to avoid getting clubbed with punches the the arms and body which would wear him down fast. He didn't have upper body movement to use it for defense.

Johnson and Golota outboxed him? You gotta be kidding. He was ahead on points against Kirk Johnson, and he won the fight with Golota.

All-time-wise Sharkey is a B-level, and that's favorable for him, because he's a heavyweight. For any other weight he'd be considered either a B- or a C+, he was that poor a boxer.

Risko was too inconsistent to be even a B-level fighter (a journeyman). He deserved a C, no higher, when he beat Walker. All-time-wise that is. During that poor period of heavyweight history, he might actually be considered a B-level, but only because that time was as bad as it gets.

I saw Ruiz prior to his title-fights period of time, before he chose that horrible, but effective style. He was very good heavyweight, with good skills.

[Senya13]

A judge in Germany (home of Chagaev's promoter) scored the fight for Ruiz, what other proof of closeness of that fight do you need? I scored it a draw, but I wouldn't object it going by one round in one or the other's favor.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Quality of opposition? Frequency? He fought 7 times between April and December 1914, and got knocked out first by Bill Watkins 6-6-1, then by Kid Wagner 9-8-1.

Look at the volume of upper teir opposition he faced over the course of his career and then compare it to Jones or Toney.

There is no comparison.

Walker's defense was much worse than Jones' or Toney's. It was too bad to be able to avoid getting hit cleanly even by relatively slow super heavyweights.

it clearly was not and even when they hit him cleanly his durability would likley see him through.

And even if he managed to avoid that (highly unlikely), he'd not be able to avoid getting clubbed with punches the the arms and body which would wear him down fast.

If it was that easy then the heavyweights of his own era would have done it.

Johnson and Golota outboxed him? You gotta be kidding. He was ahead on points against Kirk Johnson, and he won the fight with Golota.

Golotta was robbed big time. The result was a travesty. If he was a head against Johnson then he did not deserve to be.

All-time-wise Sharkey is a B-level, and that's favorable for him, because he's a heavyweight. For any other weight he'd be considered either a B- or a C+, he was that poor a boxer.

Then what is Ruiz. An F or G level heavyweight?

Risko was too inconsistent to be even a B-level fighter (a journeyman). He deserved a C, no higher, when he beat Walker.

Ridiculous.

He was regarded as the best heavyweight in the world at one point in his career. that means A level for his era and a respectable ranking for all time.

only because that time was as bad as it gets.

I think the curent era is much worse.

In what other era has the top 10 been dominated by such poorley conditioned fighters?

I mean seriously.

I drink six pints of beer a night at the weekends and I walk the street in better shape than these jokers enter the ring.

I saw Ruiz prior to his title-fights period of time, before he chose that horrible, but effective style. He was very good heavyweight, with good skills.

Well he is not now.

[Senya13]

Originally Posted by janitor

Look at the volume of upper teir opposition he faced over the course of his career and then compare it to Jones or Toney.

What that has to do with fact that Blackburn was completely shot in 1914-15? That's like praising Bearcat Wright's victory over 50-years old Jack Johnson.

it clearly was not and even when they hit him cleanly his durability would likley see him through.

He was barely able to last the distance with natural 168-pounder Harry Greb, who was not a hard hitter.

If it was that easy then the heavyweights of his own era would have done it.

He only faced one (!) super heavyweight - Arthur De Kuh. 223 pounds is the weight of smaller heavyweights now.

Golotta was robbed big time. The result was a travesty.

Golota fight was close, but no more than that. Still all 3 judges saw it for Ruiz, even Chris Byrd got worse performance against Andrew. You think Don King bought the judges to score for boring Ruiz instead of more-marketable Golota?

If he was a head against Johnson then he did not deserve to be.

Whatever, there was no "outboxing".

Then what is Ruiz. An F or G level heavyweight?

John Ruiz was a B+ heavyweight in his time and can be considered a B all-time-wise.

He was regarded as the best heavyweight in the world at one point in his career. that means A level for his era and a respectable ranking for all time.

I caught you in my trap.

Well he is not now.

I think the curent era is much worse.
In what other era has the top 10 been dominated by such poorley conditioned fighters?

1926-11-23 George Godfrey NC10 Bearcat Wright
Referee Ralph Gruman stopped the fight in the 10th round and made a statement that he had disqualified Godfrey for not trying; he made no mention of Wright's status.

1930-12-19 George Godfrey D-PTS10 Bearcat Wright
Atlanta, Dec. 20.--(AP)--George Godfrey, Philadelphia Negro heavyweight, and Ed Bearcat Wright, Omaha, Neb., boxer, fought ten slow rounds to a draw here last night.

1933-02-10 George Godfrey NC6 Bearcat Wright
Declared no contest because of stalling.

[Senya13]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Greb actually fought very conservatively in the early rounds against Walker he was weight drained and didnt open up and fight his usual windmill style till past the halfway mark.Greb came down from175 to 159 lbs,he lived on synthetic orange juice and thr minimal food ,the afternoon of the fight Grebran twice around the Central Park reservoir to shed the weight. The first 4 rds were all Walker ,he gave Greb a pounding,then Greb slowly began to work,he gave Walker a lesson in infighting befuddling him with his variety and speed,the action was now fast and furious ,even the referee ended up on the floor twice after trying to break the fighters,Walker finished the fight crying with frustration ,many thought Greb carried him through the last round ,when it seemed he could have put the Bull dog away.The source for this is James R Fair,s book the Iron City Express.

Here's a similar description, from Bob Mee's "Boxing: Heroes and Champions":

Greb was horribly weight-drained and took a terrible beating in the early rounds. By the end of the fifth some even called for massacre to be stopped, but he was still on his feet, still punching back.
In the sixth Greb turned the fight around with a magnificent display of counterpunching and then driving, relentless aggression. Walker's ear was torn, an eye swollen, and Greb was enjoying himself. Referee Eddie Purdy constantly nagged at him - and mysteriously found himself on the floor twice!
Walker rallied and they battered away down the stretch to the final bell. Greb was rocked twice in round 14, but then thumbed Walker in the eye. "You Dutch rat!" screamed the welterweight above the din, but he was knocked all over the ring in the 15th. Blood poured from Walker's cut mouth, and oozed from his ear. One eye was shut. He was out on his feet. Greb was unmarked... and still middleweight champion of the world.

And here's the AP round-by-round description:

Round One
Walker took the lead at the bell, boring into Greb. Walker's right caught Greb at the belt. They fought furiously in the center of the ring, trading rights and lefts recklessly. A stiff right uppercut rocked Walker's head. Walker countered with two rights to the jaw and Greb went back to the ropes. Greb measured Walker with a right to the jaw. They both were fighting willingly, trading punches at will.

Round Two
Greb rushed Walker to ropes and poured head and body attacks on his challenger. Walker's head rocked from a furious right. Another right drove him to the corner. Walker landed a beautiful left to Greb's mid-section and followed it with a right to the same place. The milling was furiously fast. Greb rocked Walker with a right and left to the head and the welterweight king stumbled to his knee, but was up immediately. They stood toe to toe, slugging mercilessly.

Round Three
They continued the maddening pace, both fighting openly. A terrific left to the ribs shook Walker. They clinched. Walker scored heavily to Greb's body. At close range Greb landed five times to Mickey's face and body. Both landed rights to the head. A stinging downward right to Walker's face slowed the welterweight king.

Round Four
Walker landed a left to the body. Greb countered with a stinging right to the face which staggered Walker. Another beautiful right to the face sent Walker back on his heels. A third one weakened Walker. They traded punches to the head. They wrestled in a neutral corner. Greb was in and out to the body before Walker could counter.

Round Five
Greb landed his right to Walker's uncovered jaw, but Walker countered with a harder blow to Greb's jaw. Blood began to show from Walker's mouth. They mixed furiously. They traded body blows at close quarters. Walker landed his left to Greb's body but took a stiff right to the body and head in return.

Round Six
Greb opened up his windmill tactics and drove both gloves to Walker's jaw with lightning-like rapidity. Walker landed another beautiful body blow. Greb landed four left uppercuts and crossed with his right to the jaw. A left to the jaw backed Greb.

Round Seven
Walker staggered Greb with a terrific right to the jaw. Greb countered by staggering Walker with a like blow. A hard short left to the face caused Greb to reel. A right uppercut hurt Walker A straight right backed him to the ropes. In endeavoring to break the men from a clinch Referee Purdy fell to the ring and the fighters fell over him.

Round Eight
A trip-hammer right bored its way to Walker's head. Six successive times it found its mark. Walker landed prettily to the body but took four on the head in exchange. Walker's head rocked from the force of Greb's right just as the bell sounded.

Round Nine
A straight right to Walker's face sent him to the ropes. Walker took another on the chin but fought gamely against Greb's fierce attack. Greb measured Walker but Walker beat him to the punch to the head.

Round Ten
Greb landed a left to the jaw. He staggered Walker with a vicious body blow. Walker sank back on his heels. A stinging right to the jaw turned Greb half around. Walker landed again to the head. Four times Greb's right found Walker's chin just as the bell rang.

Round Eleven
A clean right staggered Greb when it landed on his uncovered jaw. Greb missed his right and Walker scored twice to Greb's jaw. Walker landed to the head with both his right and left. The bell ended the milling.

Round Twelve
Walker staggered Greb with a vicious right to the head. Walker landed effectively to the body and head and Greb clinched. Greb landed with terrific force to Walker's jaw. They were locked in a clinch at the bell.

Round Thirteen
They stood toe to toe in Walker's corner. Walker's left eye started to swell as Greb continued to pepper to Walker's face. The one-two punch backed Walker to the ropes. Greb rushed Mickey to the corner at the bell.

Round Fourteen
They smashed away openly, both landing telling blows. Greb started to dance. A stinging right to the jaw rocked Walker to his own corner and he reeled about the ring helpless against Greb's furious attack. Walker was almost out, but pulled himself together and staggered Greb with a short left to the face. Gamely Walker fought on, badly battered, but taking everything Greb could throw. The bell saved Walker further punishment.

Round Fifteen
A right to the head reeled Walker around. He countered gamely with a left, rallying beautifully. With blood streaming down his face from a cut on his left eye. Walker bored in, holding his own in a toe to toe exchange of blows that threatened to sweep both to the floor of the ring. Walker staggered Greb with a wicked left to the head. The bell found them battling away at full speed.


The referee fell four times, according to AP report, not twice:
Eddie Purdy, the referee, was damaged almost as much as the boxers. He was spilled four times trying to break them in clinches, and he limped with a bad leg after his first fall.

They milled around the referee with such fury that four times he was thrown to the canvas, on the second trip so hard that his leg was injured, and he had to carry on as third man limping from gong to gong, and often holding himself up by the ropes.


And here some words about significance of this bout:

He had nothing much to win by pasting Mickey Walker as he did, nothing much, that is, outside of a large wad of thousand dollar bills.


The bubble of Mickey Walker being the greatest welterweight champion the world has known was pricked and his dream of whipping everybody in the world except Jack Dempsey rudely shatered last night when Harry Greb, the "Human Windmill" from Pittsburg, hammered Walker almost from center field to the home plate at the historic Polo grounds, in New York City.

Greb not only won and won off by himself, but the supposed light hitter was within an ace of stopping Walker and the welter champ was forced to use everything he had to save himself from a knockout. It simply proved the contention that Walker had yet to prove himself by whipping a good man.


Greb, defending his middle-weight title against Walker, welter-weight champion, got a unanimous decision at the end of 15 rounds and had Walker almost out in the 14th. The latter proved that a good little man can beat a good big man only on the 32nd day of the month.