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Old 04-27-2008, 09:45 AM   #16
Bokaj
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Default Re: Sonny Liston in the second Ali fight...

No, Vaile. It means Liston was hit by a right, went down and didn't get up in time.

I can see why some people have their doubts, but to claim it as a given that it was a fix without having anything substantial to back it up (just that it looked fake) is kind of stupid IMO.
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Old 04-27-2008, 10:00 AM   #17
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Default Re: Sonny Liston in the second Ali fight...

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Originally Posted by Bokaj
No, Vaile. It means Liston was hit by a right, went down and didn't get up in time.

I can see why some people have their doubts, but to claim it as a given that it was a fix without having anything substantial to back it up (just that it looked fake) is kind of stupid IMO.

I don't seek to discredit Ali. Far from it, he is a stylistic nightmare for Liston, his movement and accuracy are too much. The fighters and the fight are irrelevant, it is the knockdown that i find dubious and that would be the case in any fight. There is nothing hugely substantial to back it up, no. But fight history, body language and Liston's life outside of the ring lend the conclusion some credence.
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Old 04-27-2008, 10:19 AM   #18
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Default Re: Sonny Liston in the second Ali fight...

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Originally Posted by Vaile
I don't seek to discredit Ali. Far from it, he is a stylistic nightmare for Liston, his movement and accuracy are too much. The fighters and the fight are irrelevant, it is the knockdown that i find dubious and that would be the case in any fight. There is nothing hugely substantial to back it up, no. But fight history, body language and Liston's life outside of the ring lend the conclusion some credence.
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I'm never going to be 100% satisfied with how either fight ended, but I am with Ali's perfomance in them.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: Sonny Liston in the second Ali fight...

Any punch that lands could look powerful with the graphics, slow-motion and sound effects that were used there. Even a slo-mo of Niccolino Locche landing can look an incredibly hard shot with that treatment. Forget fixes and conspiracies or whatever. We can see what happened ourselves. It isn't a hard punch. To me, the most likely thing that Liston did was the same as 'Buster' Douglas vs Holyfield. Took the shot, lay there and thought "**** it, I can't be arsed with this". After that the most likely is the dive, then about three or four more reasons, then finally after those a legitimate KO.
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: Sonny Liston in the second Ali fight...

Ali would have stopped Liston that night regardless of whether or not he decided to take a dive. That's why its irrelevant to me. Liston has no chance of winning. He couldn't get inside any range to lay a glove on Ali, and Ali's speed, and Jab was causing him problems all night in their first fight. Nothing happened in the second fight to suggest anything different was going to happen.

Ali of that time was so good, Liston knew he had no way to win, so he took a dive. Simple as that.
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