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Old 07-19-2007, 10:14 PM   #31
sues2nd
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Default Re: Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

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Originally Posted by DaveTheWave
Not a chance. We've seen the best. It won't get better.
Pretty narrowminded approach to life ya got there!!!

Im sure people said the same before Jordan came along. And Tiger. And Federor. And Clemens. And Gretsky. And....

You get my point.

Its kinda hard for the 147 guys to have THAT good of a career. Id say they would have to prove themselves against the rest of the cream of the crop so to say....and by prove I mean, show they are better than the rest by leaps and bounds.

Then, they would have to do a few memorable things....record defenses...unify the titles....have a few wars (just for the brawler fans out there)...etc.

So to answer the original question...yes, they could. But will one of them....NO....not very likely.
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Old 07-19-2007, 10:21 PM   #32
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Default Re: Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

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Originally Posted by sues2nd
Pretty narrowminded approach to life ya got there!!!

Im sure people said the same before Jordan came along. And Tiger. And Federor. And Clemens. And Gretsky. And....

You get my point.

Its kinda hard for the 147 guys to have THAT good of a career. Id say they would have to prove themselves against the rest of the cream of the crop so to say....and by prove I mean, show they are better than the rest by leaps and bounds.

Then, they would have to do a few memorable things....record defenses...unify the titles....have a few wars (just for the brawler fans out there)...etc.

So to answer the original question...yes, they could. But will one of them....NO....not very likely.
You have to have what is seen as an equally great counterpart, or just be totally dominate. Cotto has been far from that with limited and faded fighter, stepping up to the elite level of TODAYS fighter will be a problem for Cotto I think.

Jordan had Magic and Bird, Tiger is totally dominate, Federor has Nadal, and he has been dominate. Gretsky...Well it is simpley the GREAT ONE as far as hockey goes. But I couldnt see any of these fighters reaching that status. Top 10 I could see but top 3 .
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Old 07-19-2007, 10:26 PM   #33
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Default Re: Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

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Originally Posted by 1lehudson
You have to have what is seen as an equally great counterpart, or just be totally dominate. Cotto has been far from that with limited and faded fighter, stepping up to the elite level of TODAYS fighter will be a problem for Cotto I think.

Jordan had Magic and Bird, Tiger is totally dominate, Federor has Nadal, and he has been dominate. Gretsky...Well it is simpley the GREAT ONE as far as hockey goes. But I couldnt see any of these fighters reaching that status. Top 10 I could see but top 3 .
Well my point with the other stars was...at one point, most people believed you could get no better.

Fans of Wilt contended for years that Jordan was no where near the greatest player of all time.

Fans of Borg contended that Federor could never be as good.

Fans of Howe said that about Gretsky.

Fans of Nicklaus said it about Tiger.

Point is, its a narrowminded veiw to believe that NOONE will ever be better.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:40 AM   #34
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Default Re: Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

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Originally Posted by sues2nd
Well my point with the other stars was...at one point, most people believed you could get no better.

Fans of Wilt contended for years that Jordan was no where near the greatest player of all time.

Fans of Borg contended that Federor could never be as good.

Fans of Howe said that about Gretsky.

Fans of Nicklaus said it about Tiger.

Point is, its a narrowminded veiw to believe that NOONE will ever be better.
Im not saying that we will never have a fighter that will push SRR for p4p or even best Welterweight. What Im saying is those guys arent it. By the same point in Ray's career that Cotto is in now, Ray had already beat 5 all time great fighters, Cotto has even beat a world champion yet, every title he has won has been a vacate title. Cotto is yet to even be a dog in a fight. Floyd and Williams have at least done that.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:51 AM   #35
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Default Re: Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

None of today's fighters can be greater than Sugar Ray, that much I know. The welterweights today don't even matchup well head to head with the likes of Leonard and Hearns.

To be considered one of the greats you have to have the accomplishments/achievements and it's harder to do nowadays because the best do not always fight the best and also an elite fighter today will fight at most 4 times a year sometimes less. In a head to head sense they don't cut it either.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:56 AM   #36
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Default Re: Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sues2nd
Pretty narrowminded approach to life ya got there!!!

Im sure people said the same before Jordan came along. And Tiger. And Federor. And Clemens. And Gretsky. And....

You get my point.

Its kinda hard for the 147 guys to have THAT good of a career. Id say they would have to prove themselves against the rest of the cream of the crop so to say....and by prove I mean, show they are better than the rest by leaps and bounds.

Then, they would have to do a few memorable things....record defenses...unify the titles....have a few wars (just for the brawler fans out there)...etc.

So to answer the original question...yes, they could. But will one of them....NO....not very likely.
Exactly what I mean- A fighter has 40 fights and whoa! He's got alot of fights!- Fighters back then fought alot and they fought other good fighters- they didn't pad their record against mainly tomato cans... Will we see 21 defenses of the heavyweight crown? Possible, but so unlikely it borders on impossible.
CAPER-- And no, the fighters in today's crop are not on the same level as the guys in the 50's. If you had seen any fights from back then you would agree. So if one fighter from that list rises above all others and dominates the division, he will be looked at a s one of the best , but still won't replace the ones in the top 10 or even 15... The accomplishments are too many to overcome.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:22 AM   #37
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Default Re: Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

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Originally Posted by DaveTheWave
Exactly what I mean- A fighter has 40 fights and whoa! He's got alot of fights!- Fighters back then fought alot and they fought other good fighters- they didn't pad their record against mainly tomato cans... Will we see 21 defenses of the heavyweight crown? Possible, but so unlikely it borders on impossible.
CAPER-- And no, the fighters in today's crop are not on the same level as the guys in the 50's. If you had seen any fights from back then you would agree. So if one fighter from that list rises above all others and dominates the division, he will be looked at a s one of the best , but still won't replace the ones in the top 10 or even 15... The accomplishments are too many to overcome.
Dave I never said one of today's welter weights can replace an ATG from the 50's or even the 80's I only said they would be considered a Top 5 WW....just like the quality of fighters where made of a different breed in the 50's you also must remember there are much more physically gifted fighters roaming the rings these days (take a look at the NBA). I get your point and understand exactly what your trying to say but I find it hard to think that you would'nt be able to give the proper amount of accolades for a WW of today's era taking out each and every solid contender available, that kind of accomplishment cannot go ignored.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:01 PM   #38
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Default Re: Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

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Originally Posted by Caper
Again.....please do tell

I love how you automatically assume the role of boxing historian/expert without even asking for details.

You still have not answered my previous question, I hold SRR at the top of the list but that can even be questioned because its all a matter of opinion. Ray fought the likes of Armstrong, Lamotta and Kid Gavlin in or around the WW division obviously three ATG's but outside of the fighters mentioned his WW opposition was mostly full of hard nose old school bangers. Hearns, Leonard, Benitez, Duran all incerdible fighters but the thread starter asked if a current WW was to beat Mosely, PBF, Williams, Cintron, Cotto, Collazo, DLH, Clottey, Margo....the list goes on and on without losing could they be considered one of the top WW's ever, yes is the answer. Leonard is close but he lost to Duran so that would take him out of the hypothetical scenerio the author gave us (the fighter would have to go undefeated against the top teir).....

Saying fighters around SRR's time where better fighters with better schooling as well as being built tougher is a matter of opinion not fact. You sound completely bitter how is it that you can gauge the level of toughness in a fighter, have you fought them or any of the men they fought????? Is it me or have fighters actually improved in terms of technique and skill....evolution my friend look the word up.

A wise man once told me "never assume" so being the nice guy that I am I will also pass on the same knowlege "never assume"
Well said
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Old 07-20-2007, 02:19 PM   #39
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Default Re: Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

I think this is the type of question that will only get proper and unbiased answer about 10+ years from now.

People never rate an athlete or anybody in the current time favourably against past stars especially in boxing. You have to wait till a career is over and the dust is settled before biases begin to die down especially as we have so much coverage compared to the past that it does kind of water down skills and records.

People saying its impossible are not thinking straight. Who knows what will happen in the next 5 years at WW. Say boxers, promoters and the alphabet stooges get their act together and the best fights are made . Then boxers can distinguish themselves and be seen as great fighters and in turn beat great fighters, their stock rises considerably.

Its actually retarded and simple minded to rule it out.

Last edited by cross_trainer; 03-17-2006 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 07-20-2007, 02:24 PM   #40
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Default Re: Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

Potentially yes I do believe they can.

Take Floyd, if he wants he can go an SRL like run and fight Mosley, Margo, Williams, Cotto, Cintron, Hatton, Quartey, DLH rematch, even Forrest at 147. BANG he is probably the best ever with that.

Will he do it? No, and that is why he won't be remembered like Ray Leonard who fought Benitez, Duran x2 and Hearns at 147.

What I said for Floyd applies to all of them, except Mosley, Margo and DLH. Truth be told, if they beat everyone up, they would be highly regarded but the fighters who they beat would be considered not as good. The undefeated fighters like Cotto, Williams, Hatton, Floyd etc still have that spark about them. Maybe even Cintron cos an early loss or avenged loss isn't always bad.
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