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Old 05-15-2008, 10:53 AM   #16
PaddyD1983
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj
But let's say that he never went into exile and ruled supreme for 14 years until he lost to Holmes in 1978 with 30+ defenses under his belt (I'm not saying he necessarily would reign that long, but if he did), could anyone dispute his standing as the nr. 1 HW? Wouldn't he have a good claim to be seen as one of the very best p4p, even?
I think he would have been beaten by Norton anyway (just seemed to have Ali's number) but not sure about how it would have affected his legacy. I can see both sides of the coin too.

One thing I do know is that I would have loved to have seen more of the Ali that danced around Cleveland Williams. By the time he came back he wasnt the same fighter and couldnt put on that kind of show anymore
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Old 05-15-2008, 10:53 AM   #17
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj
But let's say that he never went into exile and ruled supreme for 14 years until he lost to Holmes in 1978 with 30+ defenses under his belt (I'm not saying he necessarily would reign that long, but if he did), could anyone dispute his standing as the nr. 1 HW? Wouldn't he have a good claim to be seen as one of the very best p4p, even?
It would but inevitability his quality of opposition would have been undermined.

His layoff gave fighters a chance to establish themselves are great fighters in thier own right. His quality of opposition, at least the perception of it was improved by his abscence.

So in that regard yes it did help tremendously.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:04 AM   #18
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

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Originally Posted by PaddyD1983

One thing I do know is that I would have loved to have seen more of the Ali that danced around Cleveland Williams. By the time he came back he wasnt the same fighter and couldnt put on that kind of show anymore
Thats my big regret as well, I'd have loved to see Ali in those years. Big, fast, strong, good movement, good ring brain...he would have put on some amazing shows in those years in he had been able to.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:08 AM   #19
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

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Originally Posted by PaddyD1983
I think he would have been beaten by Norton anyway (just seemed to have Ali's number) but not sure about how it would have affected his legacy. I can see both sides of the coin too.

One thing I do know is that I would have loved to have seen more of the Ali that danced around Cleveland Williams. By the time he came back he wasnt the same fighter and couldnt put on that kind of show anymore
Yeah, if anyone would have beaten him before he got too old it would have been Norton. He would have avenged it of course, but it would have made a dent in his record. Losing to a boxer as good as Holmes at 35+ wouldn't really be held against him, but if he lost to Norton in his early 30's it would have diminished his aura of invincibility somewhat.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

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Originally Posted by GazOC
Thats my big regret as well, I'd have loved to see Ali in those years. Big, fast, strong, good movement, good ring brain...he would have put on some amazing shows in those years in he had been able to.
Yeah, he was still getting better when he was forced into exile. What a fighter he would have been around 27-29 years of age. Too bad the world never got to see that.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:23 AM   #21
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

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Originally Posted by fists of fury
From a physical standpoint it obviously hurt him, but from a legacy standoint it helped a lot.
Yes!
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Old 05-15-2008, 12:22 PM   #22
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

Ali would've probably been seen stronger head-to-head but weaker resume-wise. Although it wasn't planned, going away for three years built up his opponents and gave his legacy a tremendous boost. Louis should've taken notes, but then he did go to war and retired rather quickly after.
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Old 05-15-2008, 12:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Ali would've probably been seen stronger head-to-head but weaker resume-wise. Although it wasn't planned, going away for three years built up his opponents and gave his legacy a tremendous boost. Louis should've taken notes, but then he did go to war and retired rather quickly after.

I agree.

Let's keep in mind, also, that if Ali did fight and defeat Frazier in 1968/1969, the win wouldn't count for much. It probably wouldn't of even been the "FOTC", really, if Frazier was just another contender, albeit a good one.

And since Frazier wouldn't be as highly regarded, Foreman wouldn't have been a "future ATG". He would've been a crude, hard-punching but limited Olympic champ.

The layoff helped his resume because he came back and beat most of the better guys anyway.
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Old 05-15-2008, 03:13 PM   #24
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj
Yeah, he was still getting better when he was forced into exile. What a fighter he would have been around 27-29 years of age. Too bad the world never got to see that.
Agreed. But Ali's refusal to go into the military, his refusal to go to Vietnam and, "Kill other poor, (brown) people," was what made his legacy as a man.
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Old 05-16-2008, 01:48 AM   #25
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj
Yeah, he was still getting better when he was forced into exile. What a fighter he would have been around 27-29 years of age. Too bad the world never got to see that.
Ali was not forced into exile.

He got drafted when he refused to "step forward" when the time came
to be sworn into the military.

All his legal problems he brought down on himself (he knew what he was doing all along,,,,,and had adequate legal adivce from his lawyers).
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Old 05-16-2008, 02:34 AM   #26
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

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Originally Posted by Longhhorn71
Ali was not forced into exile.

He got drafted when he refused to "step forward" when the time came
to be sworn into the military.

All his legal problems he brought down on himself (he knew what he was doing all along,,,,,and had adequate legal adivce from his lawyers).
Get aload of this guy.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:03 AM   #27
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

This is how a see Ali's career unfolding if not for the exile:

1967-1969: He cleans out the division, breezes through guys like Spencer, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Ramos and Mac Foster. His most noteworthy defense during this time is against the impressive contender Joe Frazier, that some feel beforehand can really trouble Ali. Knowing Frazier is a slow starter Ali goes out quick and start throwing combinations behind the jab earlier than usual. After losing almost all of the first 5 rounds Frazier comes out in the sixth like he's just getting started and starts to get to Ali with the left hook more. Ali takes some of the best punches he's ever taken and loses most of the middle rounds. But this is Ali at his absolute peak, and in the tenth and eleventh rounds he comes back strong and rocks Joe. He takes enough of the remaining rounds to win a fairly comfortable decision. Frazier has the puffy, marked face of the two, but Ali walks gingerly out of the ring and the effect of Frazier's hooks are highly visible on the right side of his jaw.

1970-1975: At the beginning of the decade there doesn't seem to be anyone who can really challenge Ali. He wins rematches against Chuvalo and Bonavena and easily dispatches of a couple of other challengers before all of a sudden George Foreman comes along as the next big thing after destroying a comebacking Joe Frazier. He is touted as being a young version of Liston and is fancied by some to actually beat Ali since Ali's chin hasn't really been that tested yet. But Ali silences the doubters by giving Foreman a thorough boxing lesson and knocking him out late. Foreman lands a couple of good punches, but all that does is to prove once and for all Ali can take a good punch.

After that Ali rematches Quarry and Patterson and beats Bob Foster and Bugner before he takes on Frazier again, in the end of 1972. This time Ali fights more cautiously during the first 10 rounds - dancing behind the jab and clinching when Fraziers gets close - but turns it on for the last five. He has Frazier in some trouble in these rounds, but Frazier responds in turn and rocks him. In the last round Frazier, desperately behind on points, chases and Ali plays it safe. He wins a clear UD.

By now Ali's supremacy is total and his only real opponent seems to be advancing age. But in the very next fight Ken Norton comes out of nowhere and gives Ali his toughest fight ever. Ali doesn't suffer a broken jaw in this one, though, and manages to grind out a close and somewhat controversial decision. After dispatching of Lyle and Shavers he gives Norton a rematch in 1974. Also this one is very tough, but Ali's better prepared and wins an un-controversial but still pretty close decision. After that he claims a couple of easy victories - rematches Bugner and defeats Wepner among others. Then in 1975 he encounters surprisingly tough resistance from Jimmy Young, but takes home the UD.

1976-1979: Ali's age is really beginning to make itself known during these years, but he still has enough to beat his challengers. He defeats a Coopman and wins a rematch over Young before taking on former sparring partner Larry Holmes in late 1976. Ali takes home a close and somewhat controversial decision. He makes two more easy defenses (Evangelista being one of them) and then retires, beating both Marciano's and Louis's records with some margin and is considered by most to be the greatest heavyweight ever. Some even wants to compare him to the great Sugar Ray.

After a year in retirement he gets restless, though, and challenges Holmes for the title. Holmes has improved since their first meeting while Ali has visibly faded. Larry wins clearly, but Ali manages to go the distance. He retires for a final time.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:31 AM   #28
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

I Remember when Ali returnd from Exile, a lot of Experts were trotting out that old Boxing Maxim " They Never Come Back" Ali's Answer was " They Do if Their Good Enough " and so it subsequently Proved

Pre Exile a lot of Good Judges Felt Ali would Surrender, or Quit if Dragged into a War, the Seventies Proved he had an Iron Will to back up the Style, Ali coming Back from the Layoff, And the Frazier Defeat seemed to enhance his Legacy, its a pity he drifted along and put in some indiffrent performances, instead of putting out his Best Effort each time, However if he did that Many of his Matches would have been deemed ultra mismatches and not attractions, But the Ali Roadshow, keeping Tv and Fans happy by givin them Rounds for their Bucks seemed a happy compromise
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:07 AM   #29
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

Covering what most people already said like but anyway...True he became personally near Hero by avoiding draft and losing his title, but in a way we will never know how much it affected his legacy as a boxer.

Those 3-1/2yrs out would have been his best, no doubt, it was his peak as a fighter, take a look at Williams / Zora Folley, he was always confident but something in him had changed around then, he had reached his peak, any heavyweight over the coming 3-4yrs would not have got near him, think he was good when Liston couldnt lay a glove on him when he was green......his peak would have been something else, he was red-hot and would have danced with and destroyed all comers, its like never seeing the 2-3 years when Tyson was awesome and at his peak.....

What we missed we'll never know, what we gained we all know.

The Auditorium stood and cheered as J-Dog left the stage in tears following his legendary speech....
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Old 05-16-2008, 12:02 PM   #30
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Default Re: Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj
This is how a see Ali's career unfolding if not for the exile:

1967-1969: He cleans out the division, breezes through guys like Spencer, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Ramos and Mac Foster. His most noteworthy defense during this time is against the impressive contender Joe Frazier, that some feel beforehand can really trouble Ali. Knowing Frazier is a slow starter Ali goes out quick and start throwing combinations behind the jab earlier than usual. After losing almost all of the first 5 rounds Frazier comes out in the sixth like he's just getting started and starts to get to Ali with the left hook more. Ali takes some of the best punches he's ever taken and loses most of the middle rounds. But this is Ali at his absolute peak, and in the tenth and eleventh rounds he comes back strong and rocks Joe. He takes enough of the remaining rounds to win a fairly comfortable decision. Frazier has the puffy, marked face of the two, but Ali walks gingerly out of the ring and the effect of Frazier's hooks are highly visible on the right side of his jaw.

1970-1975: At the beginning of the decade there doesn't seem to be anyone who can really challenge Ali. He wins rematches against Chuvalo and Bonavena and easily dispatches of a couple of other challengers before all of a sudden George Foreman comes along as the next big thing after destroying a comebacking Joe Frazier. He is touted as being a young version of Liston and is fancied by some to actually beat Ali since Ali's chin hasn't really been that tested yet. But Ali silences the doubters by giving Foreman a thorough boxing lesson and knocking him out late. Foreman lands a couple of good punches, but all that does is to prove once and for all Ali can take a good punch.

After that Ali rematches Quarry and Patterson and beats Bob Foster and Bugner before he takes on Frazier again, in the end of 1972. This time Ali fights more cautiously during the first 10 rounds - dancing behind the jab and clinching when Fraziers gets close - but turns it on for the last five. He has Frazier in some trouble in these rounds, but Frazier responds in turn and rocks him. In the last round Frazier, desperately behind on points, chases and Ali plays it safe. He wins a clear UD.

By now Ali's supremacy is total and his only real opponent seems to be advancing age. But in the very next fight Ken Norton comes out of nowhere and gives Ali his toughest fight ever. Ali doesn't suffer a broken jaw in this one, though, and manages to grind out a close and somewhat controversial decision. After dispatching of Lyle and Shavers he gives Norton a rematch in 1974. Also this one is very tough, but Ali's better prepared and wins an un-controversial but still pretty close decision. After that he claims a couple of easy victories - rematches Bugner and defeats Wepner among others. Then in 1975 he encounters surprisingly tough resistance from Jimmy Young, but takes home the UD.

1976-1979: Ali's age is really beginning to make itself known during these years, but he still has enough to beat his challengers. He defeats a Coopman and wins a rematch over Young before taking on former sparring partner Larry Holmes in late 1976. Ali takes home a close and somewhat controversial decision. He makes two more easy defenses (Evangelista being one of them) and then retires, beating both Marciano's and Louis's records with some margin and is considered by most to be the greatest heavyweight ever. Some even wants to compare him to the great Sugar Ray.

After a year in retirement he gets restless, though, and challenges Holmes for the title. Holmes has improved since their first meeting while Ali has visibly faded. Larry wins clearly, but Ali manages to go the distance. He retires for a final time.
Ali would have lost way before 1976, Norton always has the style problems, and if Ali beats Fraizer in 1969, there WILL be a rematch in 71 or so when Fraizer is ready.
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