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Old 07-10-2008, 09:31 AM   #1
janitor
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Default Cleavland Williams vs George Godfrey, battle of the enigmas

Two big talented heavyweights who were feared and rated highly by their peers. Both have had their credentials questioned by revisionists based on their paper records.

Lets say they get it on in their respective primes with the winner getting a title shot in his own era?
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:57 AM   #2
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Default Re: Cleavland Williams vs George Godfrey, battle of the enigmas

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Originally Posted by janitor
Two big talented heavyweights who were feared and rated highly by their peers. Both have had their credentials questioned by revisionists based on their paper records.

Lets say they get it on in their respective primes with the winner getting a title shot in his own era?
Well, not every contemporary thought Godfrey or Williams were world-beaters, though. I think one could make just as good a case that their reputations have been increased because of those who are impressed by their paper resumes.

I take Godfrey in this one because of a superior chin.
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:23 AM   #3
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Default Re: Cleavland Williams vs George Godfrey, battle of the enigmas

Wow what a fight. hard to pick both very underated fighters. these two men were big powerful sluggers who had skills. Williams had the superior speed, while godfrey had the slightly better chin. pick em.........I would probably go with cleveland williams by majority decision.


old fogey.......why do you think williams isnt durable? during his near prime years 1957-1964 only one man ever floored him.........sonny liston. liston could not keep williams down for a 10 count. I personally think williams had an above average chin.
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: Cleavland Williams vs George Godfrey, battle of the enigmas

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Well, not every contemporary thought Godfrey or Williams were world-beaters, though
most did though. Eddie machen Claimed C Williams was tougher to fight than liston because he had the speed the other one did not have. Sonny Liston in 1962 claimed C williams gave him his toughest fights, and that no one in the division wants to fight C williams.
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:41 AM   #5
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Default Re: Cleavland Williams vs George Godfrey, battle of the enigmas

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
most did though. Eddie machen Claimed C Williams was tougher to fight than liston because he had the speed the other one did not have. Sonny Liston in 1962 claimed C williams gave him his toughest fights, and that no one in the division wants to fight C williams.
Okay, obviously some praised them, but here is a contemporary evaluation of Godfrey by James P Dawson, the boxing writer for the New York Times. This is from his report on the Godfrey-Risko fight.

"Godfrey is just a slow moving, cumbersome heavyweight, whose tremendous strength constitutes his only ring qualification."

"Risko dominated Godfrey in the 8th and 9th. Godfrey looked foolish in those two rounds as Risko pounded him. The big man was helpless to defend himself or counter the fire."

I also remember the old True Magazine boxing yearbooks and Ring magazine's periodic evaluations of the current heavies back in the late fifties and early sixties. Liston, Clay, Patterson, Johansson, Moore, Machen, and Folley were always placed ahead of Williams.
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:49 AM   #6
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Default Re: Cleavland Williams vs George Godfrey, battle of the enigmas

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but here is a contemporary evaluation of Godfrey by James P Dawson, the boxing writer for the New York Times. This is from his report on the Godfrey-Risko fight.

"Godfrey is just a slow moving, cumbersome heavyweight, whose tremendous strength constitutes his only ring qualification."

"Risko dominated Godfrey in the 8th and 9th. Godfrey looked foolish in those two rounds as Risko pounded him. The big man was helpless to defend himself or counter the fire."

There are various reports on this fight, both sides to the arguement.

Boxing Historian Chuck Hasson claimed about godfrey-risko fight "It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko". His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision"


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As for contemporaries,

Larry Gains said "Godfrey was the best of them all. I've sparred with Dempsey and fought just about every good heavyweight out there and I will tell you, George Godfrey was the best. I was afraid of only two men in my life, My Father and George Godfrey."








Quote:
I also remember the old True Magazine boxing yearbooks and Ring magazine's periodic evaluations of the current heavies back in the late fifties and early sixties. Liston, Clay, Patterson, Johansson, Moore, Machen, and Folley were always placed ahead of Williams.
interesting. everyone who fought williams seemed to come out of the ring with a very high opinion on him. any coincidence?? The fringe or borderline top 10 contenders williams fought he did what he was supposed to do, disposed of them in dominating fashion whether on the scorecards or by brutal knockouts. The top contenders that were willing to face williams........terell 2x liston 2x and machen none of those men came out of the ring without having put through hell. terell and machen were unable to get the better of big cat.
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Cleavland Williams vs George Godfrey, battle of the enigmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
There are various reports on this fight, both sides to the arguement.

Boxing Historian Chuck Hasson claimed about godfrey-risko fight "It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko". His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision"


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As for contemporaries,

Larry Gains said "Godfrey was the best of them all. I've sparred with Dempsey and fought just about every good heavyweight out there and I will tell you, George Godfrey was the best. I was afraid of only two men in my life, My Father and George Godfrey."










interesting. everyone who fought williams seemed to come out of the ring with a very high opinion on him. any coincidence?? The fringe or borderline top 10 contenders williams fought he did what he was supposed to do, disposed of them in dominating fashion whether on the scorecards or by brutal knockouts. The top contenders that were willing to face williams........terell 2x liston 2x and machen none of those men came out of the ring without having put through hell. terell and machen were unable to get the better of big cat.

1. On Godfrey--No one's saying that Godfrey didn't have his supporters that he beat Risko. The AP (Edward J Neal) voted 5-3-2 for Godfrey, but specifically stated that the ringside press was split. The UPI (George Kirksey) voted for Risko. Not having seen film, who knows. The UPI had Risko taking four of the final five rounds. The issue for me isn't who won, but how good did Godfrey look. He apparently looked slow and cumbersome, and all three accounts have him tiring badly late in the fight.

Was Godfrey trying his best? I just don't know.

2. On Williams and his chin. Williams was ko'd in all three fights he had against the two biggest punchers he faced, Liston and Satterfield. I just don't think that bodes well for a fight with Godfrey, but if Williams gets past the early rounds, his superior conditioning and stamina might indeed carry him to a victory.
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: Cleavland Williams vs George Godfrey, battle of the enigmas

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2. On Williams and his chin. Williams was ko'd in all three fights he had against the two biggest punchers he faced, Liston and Satterfield.


williams was a teenager when he fought satterfield, he had not yet fully physically nor mentally matured, PLUS he took the satterfield fight on late sub notice. a huge step up in competition for williams. williams had recently lost to 7-3 slyvester jones which shows williams was just a work in progress in 1954. williams took a 3 year layoff in 1954 came back in 1957 bigger smart bigger and better. ezz charles was a much better in his comeback in 1946 than he was pre 1943. williams improved alot after the satterfield fight. jack johnson got kayoed by choynski, how much do we hold that aginst his chin?


Quote:
but if Williams gets past the early rounds
do you not think williams has the ability to end things in the early rounds? it seems u think more of williams as a boxer than a slugger. john garfield testified that williams hit as hard as liston and foreman.


Quote:
1. On Godfrey--No one's saying that Godfrey didn't have his supporters that he beat Risko. The AP (Edward J Neal) voted 5-3-2 for Godfrey, but specifically stated that the ringside press was split. The UPI (George Kirksey) voted for Risko. Not having seen film, who knows. The UPI had Risko taking four of the final five rounds. The issue for me isn't who won, but how good did Godfrey look. He apparently looked slow and cumbersome, and all three accounts have him tiring badly late in the fight.

while I agree, chuck hasson explained that it was widedly understood that godfrey agreed to carry risko. it appeard he was not trying his best because he was on the cuffs.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: Cleavland Williams vs George Godfrey, battle of the enigmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
There are various reports on this fight, both sides to the arguement.

Boxing Historian Chuck Hasson claimed about godfrey-risko fight "It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko". His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision"


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


As for contemporaries,

Larry Gains said "Godfrey was the best of them all. I've sparred with Dempsey and fought just about every good heavyweight out there and I will tell you, George Godfrey was the best. I was afraid of only two men in my life, My Father and George Godfrey."










interesting. everyone who fought williams seemed to come out of the ring with a very high opinion on him. any coincidence?? The fringe or borderline top 10 contenders williams fought he did what he was supposed to do, disposed of them in dominating fashion whether on the scorecards or by brutal knockouts. The top contenders that were willing to face williams........terell 2x liston 2x and machen none of those men came out of the ring without having put through hell. terell and machen were unable to get the better of big cat.
Ernie Terrell,who won and lost against Williams rated the Big Cat very highly ,said he had tremendous power.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:04 PM   #10
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Default Re: Cleavland Williams vs George Godfrey, battle of the enigmas

so ernie terell eddie machen and sonny liston all spoke tremendously of williams. even ali said nice comments about williams. so clearly big cat was thought of very highly by his contemporaries.
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