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Old 07-09-2008, 04:23 PM   #31
bigjake
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
As you may have noticed, i'm not the biggest Liston fan around, but this was one story that i actually enjoyed very much. Especially considering that "look how tough i am" picture of the Bruiser.
the bruiser was a badd ass in the 60's,many stories of him man handling people.he died from a heat attack in florida several years back
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:30 PM   #32
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
The "a Man" comment was there for contrast (with "manchild"), it was also there to call to mind the words on Sonny's grave.

I would agree completely that there are several donzen who would -and have- made Tyson look like that comparative child he is. Danny Williams being the latest. Sonny's on the thread and considering his career in toto as well as the circumstances of his life and his rise to the top, I think that Tyson is far less than Sonny in terms of heart. This doesn't excuse the shady circumstances surrounding his career -I for one would not be surprised if Pontius' theory about Machen's and William's claims are right.

Liston was bad. He hurt alot of people, particularly when drunk, but he was no coward, and I think that Tyson, in his heart of hearts, really was. There are just too many attempts to bite, break arms, and other poor ways of escaping distress.

I don't like Tyson's chances against any ATG who would hurt him -not stun him like Tucker or Ruddock- hurt him. Tyson, though durable as hell, did have a tendency to stay hurt and lose confidence drastically when that happened, even though his body would stay upright for longer than the average guy.
Both fighters suffered from different versions of the bully syndrome; thus, mentally they about cancel each other out. Whoever gets the upper hand out of the gate will probably prevail, and Tyson was more explosive, with a key edge in speed, and a master at getting around the jab, and could go the distance.

I also don't like Liston's chances against any ATG who would hurt him.
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Old 07-09-2008, 06:53 PM   #33
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Dick the Bruiser

thanks
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:47 PM   #34
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by janitor
I can see your point, but if I was looking for sombody to beat Liston I would not start by looking for a better version of Floyd Patterson.

Tyson is going to be coming forward into fire and is going to have to take a lot of punishment to get through. Also consider that Liston was good on the inside if Tyson got in close.
Fair enough but it should be noted that Liston has not faced a puncher as big as Tyson whereas Tyson has faced punchers that can hit as hard if not harder than Liston.

Thing is Liston wont be landing combinations. His hands weren't fast enough. I do admit Liston had a pretty good inside game and was a versitile fighter but against Mike you can only beat him if you keep him out of the fight. When Tyson was still and elite fighter you needed a solid and consistent jab (Liston got it) lateral movement (Liston doesnt have it) and fast hands (Liston doesnt have it) and you need to clinch alot and most importantly limit Tyson's offense to keep it competitive.

My assertion is that Liston would be able to make a fight out of it but would be unable to keep Tyson out of the fight and because of that he would never have beaten him if they both met at thier respective peaks.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:20 AM   #35
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

BIG DEE HERE= First of all Tyson in his prime was around 215, the weight for
Sonny Liston was around 215 so where do you get Tyson was 15 pounds
heavier. Liston was the larger man overall as Tyson`s reach was 71" Liston`s
was 84" Tyson was 5' 11" if that Liston was 6' 1" Liston was bigger in the chest, arms, fists, Liston had a 17 1/2" neck compared to Tyson`s 19 3/4
neck but Sonny`s was stronger than hell as he stood on his head with all his weight coming down on it and rolled his head around and around. Sonny did this as part of his training, people were amazed that he didn`t break his neck doing it. Tyson`s extra weight over Liston came from his legs. 27" thighs to Liston`s 25 1/2, 18" calf to 16", other than that Liston was bigger almost everywhere else except the legs forearms Tyson 14" Liston 14 1/2" fist Tyson
13" Liston 15" and Liston was not slow as a puncher. You look at him with
Ali and he`s reaching after the fastest footed heavyweight champion next to
Gene Tunney of all time and he looks slow. watch other training films of him hitting the speed and heavybag and then tell me he slow handed. BULL SHIT.
When he had a guy where he wanted him and cut loose with his feet planted
his hands were damn fast in combinations. I THINK HE WOULD INTIMIDATE
TYSON AT CENTER RING AND THEN KO HIM AS TYSON WASN`T FAST FOOTED
IN ANY WAY EXCEPT FORWARD. LISTON HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH GUYS LIKE THAT JUST RUNNERS. IF YOU STOOD INFRONT OF LISTON AND TRIED TO BOB AND WEAVE WITHOUT LATERAL MOVEMENT WHICH TYSON DIDN`T HAVE
MUCH OF HE WOULD KILL THE GUY.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:46 AM   #36
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

Okay, in all seriousness...

With due respect to Liston and those defending him, I'm battling to envisage a Liston win here.

Liston was a great fighter in his era, but his era didn't include a whole lot of well-conditioned 220 lb. men who stood well over six feet.
Can we really argue that Liston wasn't really battle-tested against such men? Tyson of course was, and to me this is a critical difference between them.

As for the mental game, I don't really see anything in Liston that should intimidate Tyson too much. Liston was a badass for his day and his comparative huge size by the standards of the day was intimidating, but against a guy who often fought men as big or bigger than Liston I don't think Liston's size means anything here.
The big, bad bear isn't going to be so big in this matchup.

Of course Liston brought a scowling demeanour and tough guy image with him. Perhaps there would be something in that baleful look he shot at you that would intimidate Tyson, but we cannot say with any certainty.

In as much chance as Liston has of intimidating Tyson, I think the reverse is also true. Certainly he scared the division half to death in his first reign and even in his second. Poor Micheal Spinks wore the look of a doomed man before the start of their fight.
So as far as intimidation tactics and stuff go, anything is possible. Certainly both men became masters of this dark art during their respective primes.

There is a lot to like when looking at Liston stylistically. He had a beautiful, hard jab that could land almost as hard as some people's right hands. He had a good repertoire of punches and could hit as hard as pretty much anyone, and with both hands.
Certainly he was no crude slugger as was say, Foreman. He had remarkably well-polished skills for a man that came from the really mean side of life.

His big downfall - speed or the lack of it - is what I think will be his achilles heel in this fight. He is facing a man with not an edge in handspeed, but a massive advantage in handspeed. We cannot underestimate this aspect of any fight.
That kind of speed advantage is what allowed a Roy Jones to dominate two excellent technical fighters in Hopkins and Toney. Sometimes there is just no answer to a guy with lightning quick hands. Naturally Jones and Tyson fought competely different types of fights, but the point stands.
When you enjoy a big advantage in handspeed, you can get away with a whole lot more than the other guy.

I believe the reach advantage enjoyed by Liston would be quite successfully nullified by Tyson's quick reactions, evasiveness coming in and counter-punching skills. I don't think Tyson ever fought a guy with an inferior reach to himself, and he was remarkably adept at getting inside a long jab or right hand and countering the guy with a heavy hook.
Even as a budding 19 year old prospect he had this skill mastered.

Tyson's options are not limited to countering though, as he was quite happy to lead and punish with a series of hard combinations, often started by utilising his own (rarely discussed) jab. I think Liston would find it hard to get set and throw his big punches, as Tyson victims often complained that they just could not time Tyson as he was so quick getting inside.
As his hands were not the quickest to begin with, I think this compounds Liston's woes.

In looking at Tyson's losses when he was still a force, I see guys who did not allow him to get inside and work those debilitating combinations. Douglas and Lewis kept him at a distance and fired off long-range artillery. They did not allow Tyson to get set. Both men though, were relatively quick-handed and were facing a less-than-spectacular Tyson.
Holyfield did not allow Tyson to push him back and warred in the trenches with Tyson when he needed to. He was also not intimidated by Tyson in any way. Most importantly, he had studied Tyson in such detail that he was pretty accurate in predicting exactly what Tyson would do, and how to counter it.
I don't see Liston studying Tyson in such fine detail, nor is he a quick-handed combination puncher like Holyfield was. He will also not enjoy a significant size advantage like Douglas and Lewis did. Lastly, he will be facing the very best version of Tyson, not an underprepared or shop-worn version.

Tyson by stoppage / KO, but I'm not predicting the round.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:02 AM   #37
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironchamp
Fair enough but it should be noted that Liston has not faced a puncher as big as Tyson
Debatable.

Quote:
whereas Tyson has faced punchers that can hit as hard if not harder than Liston.
He certainly never faced a composite puncher as efective as Liston in his prime.

Quote:
Thing is Liston wont be landing combinations. His hands weren't fast enough.
George Foreman didnt need to land combinations against Joe Frazier to destroy him. All he needed to do was to make him take a few punches to land one and keep forcing him back.

Liston would be able to implement this strategy more efectivley.

Quote:
I do admit Liston had a pretty good inside game and was a versitile fighter but against Mike you can only beat him if you keep him out of the fight.
Tyson never really developed a suite of infighting skills so if Liston grabs him and then switches his attack to the inside he will have to step back to get punching room. When he dose this Liston will also step back and Tyson will have to plough through more punches to get in range.

Quote:
When Tyson was still and elite fighter you needed a solid and consistent jab (Liston got it) lateral movement (Liston doesnt have it) and fast hands (Liston doesnt have it) and you need to clinch alot and most importantly limit Tyson's offense to keep it competitive.
I dont think you necisarily needed movment or fast hands. You could male a case that you needed these things to beat Joe Frazier prior to the Foreman fight.

The bottom line is that when two elite punchers fight the one comig forward is toast unless there is a big disparity in quality. There are verry few exceptions historicaly.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:34 AM   #38
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

I've not heard the Dick the Bruiser story. Anyone?
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:54 AM   #39
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Maxmomer
I've not heard the Dick the Bruiser story. Anyone?

I read something on Wikipedia about Dick the Bruiser. I forget his real last name. He was from Indiana and a weightlifting fanatic before it became really popular. He was about 6-1" and 265lbs. David Letterman used a variation of Dick the Bruiser's title when he named Paul Schafer's band 'The World's Most Dangerous Band.' Letterman, like Dick the Bruiser, is from Indiana. Anyway, legend has it that Liston confronted Dick in the lobby of the Thunderbird. Liston had heard he had made some disparaging remarks about the state of heavyweight boxing at the time. Liston cornered him and starting slapping his face. Dick the Brusier begged Liston to let him go and eventually started crying for Liston to leave him alone. Like I said, this is a rumor and there is no proof it actually happened. Dick the Bruiser passed away in November of 1991 while lifting weights. A blood vessel in his neck ruptured during the workout.
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Old 07-11-2008, 01:13 AM   #40
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

BIG DEE HERE= DICK AFFLIS was his name and in a street fight I guarentee
he didn`t back down from Liston as he was just about crazy. One time he took on Alex Karris and the whole danm bar they were in. Then he beat up some cops who came to stop the whole mess. Dick ( The Bruiser ) Afflis
played 5 yrs at Defensive Tackle for the Green Bay Packers in the 1950s
but quit when he found out he could make 5 times the money as a Pro Wrestler.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:52 AM   #41
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Default Re: Mike Tyson beats Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
As you may have noticed, i'm not the biggest Liston fan around, but this was one story that i actually enjoyed very much. Especially considering that "look how tough i am" picture of the Bruiser.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

...you must mean that one!

I don't particular give rumors or legends much weight. I think it far more likely that the "horse" Duran knocked out was a cardboard cut-out of the one Ichabod Crane rode in "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow." But this Liston-Bruiser story has credibility for a few reasons:

- Liston was a degenerate gambler, and haunted Vegas generally and it is not the least bit hard to believe that he was at the Thunderbird and ran into or went looking for Dick the Bruiser.

-Liston had a problem with "fresh mouths". It was in a casino that he slapped Clay across the face after he was disrespected by him. Theirs a modus operandi there. It's consistent. Dick made comments about the current state of the HW division and Liston took it personally -no surprise there either.

- Liston was a thug, especially when he drank. He didn't exactly consider consequences when acting out.

- for those who cannot believe that Dick would be humiliated like this considering his reputation. First of all, Alex Karris was a pro wrestler himself. In other words, he was a bad actor more than he was an athlete. That barroom brawl may have been either a publicity stunt or drunken trashtalking that got out of hand.
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