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Old 07-26-2007, 06:41 PM   #31
john garfield
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

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Originally Posted by Drew101
I wouldn't say Benny Leonard is forgotten. He's generally considered a Top 3 atg lightweight, absolute minimum.

Joe Brown would be my choice.
Great to see Joe Brown's name. Whatta sweet fighter! Spent hours in the gym watching him spar, trying to copy his style. I was a poor imitation.
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:25 PM   #32
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

TBooze, you have produced a well considered and carefully thought out list. Of course I have disagreements with it, but it doesn't suffer from the period prejudices my preferences are confined by. (My hardcore aversion to the 12 round limit for example.) I guess I'm most surprised that you have Greb so low, and Carpentier so high. At the same time, the ranks of those who boxed in the LW division at one time or another is well-represented.

Innovation and evolutionary contributions are significant to me as well as head to head performance, and promotion of boxing's popularity and public acceptance. That's why I'd have a list which includes John L. Sullivan and Dempsey. As to how many would be included on such a list, I can assure you that it would not be diluted with overflow for marketing purposes, as the IBHOF is.
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:51 PM   #33
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

Ike Williams & Canzoneri dont get enough attention.
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Old 07-26-2007, 11:18 PM   #34
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

MY all-time great lightweights

Joe Gans
Benny Leonard
Tony Canzoneri
Barney Ross
Henry Armstrong
Ike Williams
Joe Brown
Roberto Duran
Alexis Arguello
Pernell Whitaker
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:02 AM   #35
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

Here's a lightweight who potentially beats everyone at 135, but hardly anyone mentions him: Packey McFarland.

Lost only once (in his 7th pro bout) in over 100 fights, and beat the likes of Owen Moran, Freddie Welsh, Jack Britton, Jimmy Britt, Kid Herman, Harlem Tommy Murphy, Cyclone Johnny Thompson, Matt Wells and held his own with Mike Gibbons well above his best weight and past his best (in a comeback fight almost two years after he retired).

Here he is against Freddie Welsh:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (Part One)

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (Part Two)
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:03 AM   #36
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
TBooze, you have produced a well considered and carefully thought out list. Of course I have disagreements with it, but it doesn't suffer from the period prejudices my preferences are confined by. (My hardcore aversion to the 12 round limit for example.) I guess I'm most surprised that you have Greb so low, and Carpentier so high. At the same time, the ranks of those who boxed in the LW division at one time or another is well-represented.

Innovation and evolutionary contributions are significant to me as well as head to head performance, and promotion of boxing's popularity and public acceptance. That's why I'd have a list which includes John L. Sullivan and Dempsey. As to how many would be included on such a list, I can assure you that it would not be diluted with overflow for marketing purposes, as the IBHOF is.
Thanks it is very hard to write out and indeed justify such lists. To a degree it is ludicrous, because at the extremes you are rating a 95lbs man in 1910 (Wilde) against a 250lbs man from 2001 (Lewis).

I have bias because I know more about some fighters and because of that, that has positive (Carpentier/Foreman) or negative (Ross/Greb) affect.
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:01 AM   #37
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
Here's a lightweight who potentially beats everyone at 135, but hardly anyone mentions him: Packey McFarland.

Lost only once (in his 7th pro bout) in over 100 fights, and beat the likes of Owen Moran, Freddie Welsh, Jack Britton, Jimmy Britt, Kid Herman, Harlem Tommy Murphy, Cyclone Johnny Thompson, Matt Wells and held his own with Mike Gibbons well above his best weight and past his best (in a comeback fight almost two years after he retired).

Here he is against Freddie Welsh:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (Part One)

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (Part Two)
thanks ss
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:04 AM   #38
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

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Originally Posted by janitor
I do not need to tell anybody here that the lightweight division has an extremely talent rich history.

I think it is a division where all time greats get overlooked due to the low profile of the division and spme never make it due to the level of competition.

So here is a thread devoted to great lightweights who do not get enough exposure. Lets have some names.
George Kid Lavigne a savage battler,forgotten today.
Sammy Mandell,who captured some impressive scalps witj his immaculate skills.
Charley White from Chicago who many old timers consider to have the most lethal left hook p4p of all time,never a champ but a dangerous man.
Barney Ross ,who could box your ears off,lacked a big punch to go with his skills.
Lew Jenkins ,raw and crude,never trained,sometimes drunk in his corner,could hit like a welterweight.
Al Singer ,won the title with a 1 round ko of Mandell,[Sammy was never the same again],and lost it with a 1 round ko to Canzoneri.
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:09 AM   #39
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
George Kid Lavigne a savage battler,forgotten today.
Sammy Mandell,who captured some impressive scalps witj his immaculate skills.
Charley White from Chicago who many old timers consider to have the most lethal left hook p4p of all time,never a champ but a dangerous man.
Barney Ross ,who could box your ears off,lacked a big punch to go with his skills.
Lew Jenkins ,raw and crude,never trained,sometimes drunk in his corner,could hit like a welterweight.
Al Singer ,won the title with a 1 round ko of Mandell,[Sammy was never the same again],and lost it with a 1 round ko to Canzoneri.
Interesting guys ,if not all greats
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:02 PM   #40
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

i tell you what Lightweight doesnt get hardly any love on this board

Jimmy Carter

he had that great fight with Ike Williams that doesnt get talked about alot.

i think the reason is because he lost alot of fights but was a warrior none the less.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:12 PM   #41
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
George Kid Lavigne a savage battler,forgotten today.
A generous slice of opinion had Lavigne as the greatest lightweight of all time well into Benny Leonards career.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:28 PM   #42
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Default Re: Forgotten great lightweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoppaZoo
i tell you what Lightweight doesnt get hardly any love on this board

Jimmy Carter

he had that great fight with Ike Williams that doesnt get talked about alot.

i think the reason is because he lost alot of fights but was a warrior none the less.
Carter often came in to the ring wearing flippers and swimming trunks ,because of this its difficult to judge his true ability.
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