Top 10 MMA ATG's

[Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by cross_trainer

Well, Royce beat the #2 and #3 guys of his era, so that should count for something. Then again, Coleman was a wrecking machine. He probably belongs a hair above Royce, now that I think a bout it. Funaki deserves to be a bit below Shamrock and Rutten, since both managed to win titles in the UFC in addition to their Pancrase accomplishments.

Severn though? Top 20, 25? He's lost to most of the top guys, but his overall activity and travel, as well as longevity is impressive, some of the wins aren't bad, like the decision over Ken Shamrock.

I suspect that some of the younger guys now will establish legacies that will definitley swamp some of the established ATG's.

[cross_trainer]

Originally Posted by Amsterdam

Severn though? Top 20, 25? He's lost to most of the top guys, but his overall activity and travel, as well as longevity is impressive, some of the wins aren't bad, like the decision over Ken Shamrock.

I suspect that some of the younger guys now will establish legacies that will definitley swamp some of the established ATG's.

I was referring to Royce solely as the "greatest" of his era--which would be demonstrated by beating Shamrock and Severn. All-time, Severn doesn't rank high, and Shamrock is probably comfy in the top 20/25.

I agree. The sport is very young, and there is a lot of room for improvement. In only a decade, it will be almost twice as old as it is now.

[SweetScienceFan]

I don't understand why Silva is so high on everyone's list. He had a good run at the top, but has some serious losses out there that have never been dealt with.

When he was in the UFC he was dominated by Belfort, then beat by Ortiz. Then, in pride he had a good run, and his wins over Jackson and a few others... but he also lost brutally to Henderson, and Cro-Cop (not that much bigger than Silva). He also clearly lost to Arona both times, and was given a gift in the second fight. He lost to Hunt as well, I understand that size disadvantage there, but the man should be much more well rounded than Hunt, and I felt that he should have been able to beat him. Especially at that point, where a smaller Yoshida handled him, and then Dan Bobish was absolutely owning Hunt until he ran out of gas.

I think that Silva is a bad ass, has some great fights, but he is also very overrated.

[doefler182]

Originally Posted by SweetScienceFan

I don't understand why Silva is so high on everyone's list. He had a good run at the top, but has some serious losses out there that have never been dealt with.

When he was in the UFC he was dominated by Belfort, then beat by Ortiz. Then, in pride he had a good run, and his wins over Jackson and a few others... but he also lost brutally to Henderson, and Cro-Cop (not that much bigger than Silva). He also clearly lost to Arona both times, and was given a gift in the second fight. He lost to Hunt as well, I understand that size disadvantage there, but the man should be much more well rounded than Hunt, and I felt that he should have been able to beat him. Especially at that point, where a smaller Yoshida handled him, and then Dan Bobish was absolutely owning Hunt until he ran out of gas.

I think that Silva is a bad ass, has some great fights, but he is also very overrated.

i agree a hundred percent

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by SweetScienceFan

I don't understand why Silva is so high on everyone's list. He had a good run at the top, but has some serious losses out there that have never been dealt with.

When he was in the UFC he was dominated by Belfort, then beat by Ortiz. Then, in pride he had a good run, and his wins over Jackson and a few others... but he also lost brutally to Henderson, and Cro-Cop (not that much bigger than Silva). He also clearly lost to Arona both times, and was given a gift in the second fight. He lost to Hunt as well, I understand that size disadvantage there, but the man should be much more well rounded than Hunt, and I felt that he should have been able to beat him. Especially at that point, where a smaller Yoshida handled him, and then Dan Bobish was absolutely owning Hunt until he ran out of gas.

I think that Silva is a bad ass, has some great fights, but he is also very overrated.

2 205 tournaments, long run as a title holder, and early succes in IVC as well, those are more accomplishments than almost anybody. His losses don't take away from what he did.

[doefler182]

Originally Posted by Beebs

2 205 tournaments, long run as a title holder, and early succes in IVC as well, those are more accomplishments than almost anybody. His losses don't take away from what he did.

what was his second 205 tournament he won?

how many title defenses did he actually have?

and so when i bring up pancrase wins there not that big but IVC is?

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by doefler182

what was his second 205 tournament he won?

how many title defenses did he actually have?

and so when i bring up pancrase wins there not that big but IVC is?

Shit, youre right, I blanked on him winning 2, don't know why I was thinking that, and that does take away from him somewhat.

IVC and Pancrase are tough to compare IVC is certainly more MMA relevant, as Pancrase had some really restrictive rules, whereas IVC had next to none. Competition wise, both were hit or miss, and and Wanderlei had both the hit and the miss, with the biggest IVC win being probably Van Arsdale.

I don't really know what Pancrase wins you're talking about, so I can't really comment on that.

[doefler182]

Originally Posted by Beebs

Shit, youre right, I blanked on him winning 2, don't know why I was thinking that, and that does take away from him somewhat.

IVC and Pancrase are tough to compare IVC is certainly more MMA relevant, as Pancrase had some really restrictive rules, whereas IVC had next to none. Competition wise, both were hit or miss, and and Wanderlei had both the hit and the miss, with the biggest IVC win being probably Van Arsdale.

I don't really know what Pancrase wins you're talking about, so I can't really comment on that.

yeah i kinda forgot bout the whole no closed punches and stuff in pancrase, and i havent seen too much ivc

and witht he pancrase wins i was talkin bout when we were debatin bas rutten earlier. im not tryin to be a dick or anythin. (sorry if i was) but i just dont see how some have wandy as high as two when Bas did just as much but with far less embarassin losses, and more championships.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by doefler182

yeah i kinda forgot bout the whole no closed punches and stuff in pancrase, and i havent seen too much ivc

and witht he pancrase wins i was talkin bout when we were debatin bas rutten earlier. im not tryin to be a dick or anythin. (sorry if i was) but i just dont see how some have wandy as high as two when Bas did just as much but with far less embarassin losses, and more championships.

I wouldnt really consider any of Wandys losses, outside of Artur Mariano, and maybe Vitor Belfort embarassing, the Arona and Tito fights were fairly close, Hunt was almost a moral victory, and CroCop and Hendo are just that good.

[Dostoevsky]

You know, you guys underate Chuck Liddell and Tito Ortiz.
Tito Ortiz has the most title defenses of any fighter in MMA of any weight class.

Chuck Liddell was extremely dominant as well, I would say he beat better fighters than Wanderlei.

Both Chuck and Tito deserve to be in the top 15.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by Iron Duke

You know, you guys underate Chuck Liddell and Tito Ortiz.
Tito Ortiz has the most title defenses of any fighter in MMA of any weight class.

Chuck Liddell was extremely dominant as well, I would say he beat better fighters than Wanderlei.

Both Chuck and Tito deserve to be in the top 15.

I agree with your point strongly, but I have Hughes defending the belt 7 times and Tito defending 5 times.

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[Dostoevsky]

Woops

Forgot about Hughes for a sec, yes, Hughes is definitly in the top 10 (Top5)

I think the first list is good, maybe switch fedor and wandy.

[Mob]

As great as Fedor is,...I don't think that his accomplishments thus far warrant a number 1 or 2 spot.

Now, as far as ability and skill P4P,.....I would probably put Fedor #1.