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Old 12-16-2008, 11:00 AM   #1
Russell
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Default Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Affect Foreman so much more then Frazier in Joe's two fights against George?

Foreman was face down on the canvas in that fight. Ron really stunned him. Almost had him out of there even. In comparison when Ali had Foreman down Foreman got up and walked back to his corner. Not so much nearly being unconscious as having no will left to fight.

Frazier in comparison seemed to barely be able to get Foreman's attention, and it's not like he didn't hit him. Foreman had a big black eye after one of their fights while being interviewed and was joking about how Frazier's hook had given it to him.

And I honestly can't much separate between Lyle and Frazier's power.

Thoughts?
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Old 12-16-2008, 11:10 AM   #2
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Probably a combination of 1) Lyle perhaps being a little harder puncher, and 2) Lyle and Foreman mixing it at a distance congenial to both of them, while Frazier probably had to punch outside of his distance. Second factor probably the bigger one. (The more the hook opens up (past forearm perpendicular to upper arm), the less the fore-arm (with the fist at the end) corresponds to the vector of force).

As for the Ali KO, I think that a) the count was a little quick, and b) at that point a quick count was fine by Foreman. I'm not saying, though, that Foreman didn't try to get up in time. He got screwed slightly, but I don't think he much minded.
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Old 12-16-2008, 11:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

The primary difference Russell, is that Lyle had a counter punching style that Frazier did not have. Lyle cought Foreman ( and other opponents ), as they were walking in, whereas Frazier persued by pushing forward. Frazier had the wrong style for Foreman, by lowering his center of gravity and lunging forward. Lyle stood back and countered. Now, why did Lyle manage to floor Foreman, and not some of his other opponents? I think the main reason is that guys like Joe Bugner and co. fought safer fights. Didn't walk in the way that George did. Additionally, I think there may have been an underestimating factor at work here as well. Foreman had just got through fighting Joe Frazier, Ken Norton and Muhammad Ali ( albeit a loss ). For him, the thought of losing to a #5 or #7 ranked contender was probably infathable.
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:26 PM   #4
Charles White
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Heart is always a factor in a boxing match, and Lyle had a lot of it that night.
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Old 12-16-2008, 01:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Foreman's self confidence was pretty much at an all time low, that and of course styles make fights.

Didn't the 1st round (or 2nd) end at the 2 minute mark? I think so and if I remember correctly Foreman had hurt Lyle and had him pinned of the ropes. If not for the early bell, Foreman may have won via early KO.
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Old 12-16-2008, 02:40 PM   #6
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

I think the fact Lyles size closely mirrored Foremans and the fact he was also a tallented boxer puncher helped. I dont think Lyle is a good match up for Frazier either
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Old 12-17-2008, 01:58 AM   #7
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Foreman was vulnerable to the straight right. Lyle (and Ali) had a good one; Frazier just had a predictable left hook.
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Old 12-17-2008, 02:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Lowe View Post
Foreman's self confidence was pretty much at an all time low, that and of course styles make fights.
Not only that, but Foreman was making an active effort to "change" his style and be more of a tactical, patient fighter (with the hope that it would help him go the distance better), but that actually had an adverse affect because it took away what was one of his biggest assets, his naked aggression.

As has already been said, Lyle was a bit more comfortable as a counterpuncher than Frazier and had a better sneak right. But Foremen also gave him the room he needed by pressing forward tentatively and not going balls to the wall and simply letting his hands go like he used to do pre-Ali.
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Old 12-17-2008, 06:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

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Originally Posted by Russell View Post
Affect Foreman so much more then Frazier in Joe's two fights against George?

Foreman was face down on the canvas in that fight. Ron really stunned him. Almost had him out of there even. In comparison when Ali had Foreman down Foreman got up and walked back to his corner. Not so much nearly being unconscious as having no will left to fight.

Frazier in comparison seemed to barely be able to get Foreman's attention, and it's not like he didn't hit him. Foreman had a big black eye after one of their fights while being interviewed and was joking about how Frazier's hook had given it to him.

And I honestly can't much separate between Lyle and Frazier's power.

Thoughts?
I think Frazierís power was a tad over rated as a power punch. The thing is, Frazier left hook was fast, and could be fired all night without losing any of its power. Frazier smashed cruiserweight sized heavies, but really did not blow out big people...Mathis, Bugner, Foreman. He could only grind them down over time before they got to him first.

I think Foreman's chin was pretty good, but not great. The Lyle fight shows us this, and its one reason why I think Foreman can be had by big punchers.
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:00 AM   #10
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Lyle hit him with shots he couldnt time as well even if he tried...George walked right into them and because of his stand up style he copped a ton.

Those shots were the dictionary definition of flush.
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Lyle as an opponent is the total opposite of what every other manager does with their guy > a tough loss or tough fight. It's almost always a mr softie type and even Ali was put in with Wepner > Zaire.

A 1976 version of Ron Lyle is no easy pickings & it's a miracle that match took place. There were a ton of other beatable guys around at the time and a much easier win for Foreman.

The comeback effort > a loss rarely, if ever, is an A+ fight result. That's why these guys are matched up against guys that are B or C grade fighters. And that is a main reason Lyle did so well was that all George was going to bring into the ring that night was his B game. And anyone bringing in their B game against a 76 Lyle is going to be very fortunate to get a win.
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:07 AM   #12
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Foreman was easy to counter and Lyle may have had better wiskers than Frazier. or because he was a two armed fighter. Foreman was wide open to be hit but only after the Ali loss did he step up in class (Norton was made for him) he fought a solid guy who fought back and was not afraid. Foreman did show his heart in the end of that fight (the winning factor) Lyle was a good puncher but not a killer puncher. It was a combination of having a good chin and fighting back and letting his hands go. Foreman was a talented and strong heavy but beatable, he would have lost to a few simular styled guys that night
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Old 12-17-2008, 10:50 AM   #13
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Lyle had a "bad ass" attitude too...being an ex-con & all.

George & Ron just got within range of each other and let the heavy artillery go.

And I think George wasn't really in as good of shape as he was for either Frazier or Ali.
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Old 12-17-2008, 06:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

Thanks for this post. It prompted me to watch the fight again. I remember these days fondly. I think part of the mix was that Foreman at that time still had what would later be called the "Tyson Mystique". Foreman's loss to Ali didn't diminish his standing as a puncher it only heightened Ali's standing as a boxer.

In the first round Lyle was very effective with his circular movement to Foreman's right, but once he nailed Foreman once he quit moving as effectively.

I would say that the main reasons he did so well against Foreman were that he fought inside fearlessly, sometimes almost laying his head on Foreman's chest, but mostly he counter-punched HARD over that pawing left of Foreman's. Foreman, who once trained with Liston was not accustomed to being treated that way...
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Old 12-17-2008, 11:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: Lyle vs Foreman - Why Was Lyle Able To...

For one, Foreman was coming off a layoff of over a year when he fought Lyle. What's more, Lyle was at his peak when he fought Foreman, while Frazier was substantially past his own. But most of all, Lyle had a much better style than Frazier did for coping with and landing on a guy like George. Lyle was as tall and rangy as Foreman himself with punches that were perhaps a little quicker and straighter in addition to being very hard, he was confident and fearless, and he was able to capitalize and score big on a somewhat off-his-game George.
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