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Old 12-29-2008, 08:53 PM   #16
MRBILL
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

Ken Norton was never destined to reign long on top..... "Holmes, Shavers & Cooney" were all gonna get title shots any way.... Ken Norton was good; not great as champion....

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Old 12-29-2008, 09:45 PM   #17
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

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Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
Norton could not trade with a puncher, could beat the boxers with pressure but would get ko'd by any decent puncher that had a pulse
Not true, proven by him avenging a loss against a good puncher that he was stopped by in Jose Luis Garcia.

Not to mention Boone Kirman and Jerry Quarry, both very good punchers that he dismantled.

I find it funny that because his chin wilted under the bombs of two of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time that it's piss poor, when Ali could never even get him off his feet.
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Old 12-30-2008, 05:18 AM   #18
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

And just how high of regard did anyone hold Garcia or Kirkman at the time? And Quarry's form was not good going into their bout & everyone was picking Norton big time in that 75 bout. Maybe a matchup in 71 or 72 with Quarry has different results & Jerry wanted to fight the guy back then.

Norton did not look good in a few bouts back then going into that Holmes bout. He looked very very vulnerable against Middleton and Zanon. He looked good against Bobick allright, but Bobick hardly looked like a world beater against Houpe in his preceeding bout.

If Norton would've got the nod over Holmes, there would've been a rematch & Larry wins. I was surprised how tough a time Holmes had with the guy in the first place. I thought Larry was going to circle him and pick and peck all night & Norton would never catch him. In a rematch, I'm sure that Holmes fights on his toes and gets the decision over a fading Norton.

If the Holmes rematch doesn't take place, the ideal opponent would probably have been Leon Spinks. Then again, you also could've seen Foreman come out of retirement, who was only 26 back then. Everyone was waiting for it until about 1980 when it became clear he really was going to stay out of the sport. And how many people would pick Kenny to win a rematch with that guy? Top 10 guys back then were Shavers/Young/old Ali/old Lyle/and the up and comers like Holmes/Tate/Coetzee/Knoetze.

I don't think a 35 year old Norton handles the youthful punchers in that 78 timeframe. And I think Tate outboxes him as well. Young had started his downward spiral but was capable of rising to the occasion one final time. But the public wouldn't have bought that rematch fight.

That Holmes bout was the last good effort for Kenny and that was his final rise to the occasion. He sure didn't look good against Earnie in there & Shavers had been wanting to get the guy in the ring for years. The Ledoux and Cobb bouts showed just how far Norton had deteriorated. Any sort of title run was going to be brief and there would've been a ton of managers trying to get their guy in with an old fading fighter like Norton.
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:07 AM   #19
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

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Originally Posted by Russell View Post
Not true, proven by him avenging a loss against a good puncher that he was stopped by in Jose Luis Garcia.

Not to mention Boone Kirman and Jerry Quarry, both very good punchers that he dismantled.

I find it funny that because his chin wilted under the bombs of two of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time that it's piss poor, when Ali could never even get him off his feet.
The only reason we've even heard of Jose Garcia is because he knocked out Norton; not because he was a big player in the division. Norton made him by losing to him, not the other way around.

Quarry was never really a big puncher and one fight away from retirement, and it showed.... If you need guys like Kirkman to show he can beat a puncher, well i guess that says enough...
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:13 AM   #20
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

I thought Jerry Quarry was a damn good banger for a dude of 200 pounds or so...... However, again, Quarry's power was only really effective against heavies of his size..... YES! He KO'd Earnis Shavers in '73, but Shavers never could take as good as he could dish out.... Against the likes of "Ali, Frazier & Norton," Jerry Quarry's power didn't matter....

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Old 12-30-2008, 11:36 AM   #21
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

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Originally Posted by newbridgeboxing View Post
If Norton carried on for a while if that happend i wouldn't like to see ken get beaten up by a young Tyson
It wouldn't have mattered. Age took Norton out of Boxing long before Tyson came up.
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Old 12-30-2008, 03:31 PM   #22
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

Garcia beat a Norton who had 16 fights, and a washed up Thad Spencer, Kirkman ,beat a faded Amos Lincoln,ditto Doug Jones and Eddie Machen. Hardly live scalps.Any one who backed up Norton beat him ,Shavers , and Cooney did it when he was old, I think they beat him in his prime.Eddie Futch said" Norton froze against punchers" ,and he should know.
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Old 12-30-2008, 03:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

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Garcia beat a Norton who had 16 fights, and a washed up Thad Spencer, Kirkman ,beat a faded Amos Lincoln,ditto Doug Jones and Eddie Machen. Hardly live scalps.Any one who backed up Norton beat him ,Shavers , and Cooney did it when he was old, I think they beat him in his prime.Eddie Futch said" Norton froze against punchers" ,and he should know.

Agreed,

Jose Luis Garcia was a journeyman on his best day. He was 188 Lbs and had only stopped maybe 6 of his 12 victoms. Nothing special there. Quarry was a good boxer and counter puncher, but definately not a slugger. Boone Kirkman was a respectable opponent but no world beater by anyone's standards.

I agree with Futch's statement that he froze against punchers, and would have always struggled with the best of them. Apparently Frazier used to get the better of him in sparring on a regular basis, and he didn't even have the advantage of size as so many others would have. There are some boxer/punchers who I might give Norton a chance against, but not any true power hitters. Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko would always have my vote to beat Ken Norton. I like the man a lot, but his weakness has been overly exposed.......
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Old 12-30-2008, 04:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
What makes you say that?

Okay, he definitely deserved the title in his fight with Ali in 1976. But where else? The Holmes fight was close, but a clear win for Holmes.
Think about this.

He was entitled to a fouth fight with Ali which he would almost certainly have won.

He was entitled to a fight with Leon Spinks which he would almost certainly have won.

He could theoreticaly have got the nod vs Holmes.

Any one of these wins would have added him to the list of lineal champions on CBZ.

If I was Norton I would be damn frustrated.
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Old 12-30-2008, 04:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

A potential Norton title run should happen from 1976 when he quite possible edged out Ali. After that he beat Bobick, controversally beat Young, arguably beat Holmes. He was then smashed the next year against Shavers, although maybe Norton at 35yo on the back of 2 controversal losses had given up on the game and just come for the paycheck by that stage.

If Norton had been champ he would have had fights on his terms, the fights he wanted, got the benefit of close decisions etc (Holmes/Ali). Maybe he would have grown into being a champ and reigned for a few years
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:11 AM   #26
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

Never would have happened. One of the reasons Norton never got the breaks was that he was never the house fighter. Biron just took the most $$ on a fight by fight basis.

King had Foreman & I'm sure he coaxes George out of retirement in 78 to face a Norton. It would've been for huge money and Biron takes it. And there wouldn't have been many people picking an old Kenny in a rematch over a youthful Foreman.
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Old 12-31-2008, 07:55 AM   #27
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

Norton would have defended against Shavers within a year or two and got KO'd.

It's that simple.
Norton thought he could beat the limited Shavers and would have been even more confident of doing so had he been champion. A badly faded Ali had beaten Shavers, Holmes had, Lyle had, Quarry had. So had Ron Stander and Bob Stallings, arguably Jimmy Young too.

Norton would have walked into the Shavers trap.

Of course it's worth speculating whether or not Norton could have coaxed Ali into a 4th fight had they both been title-holders in late '78 and through '79.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:15 AM   #28
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
Agreed,

Jose Luis Garcia was a journeyman on his best day. He was 188 Lbs and had only stopped maybe 6 of his 12 victoms. Nothing special there. Quarry was a good boxer and counter puncher, but definately not a slugger. Boone Kirkman was a respectable opponent but no world beater by anyone's standards.
Garcia was a 6'4 southpaw who beat Norton after Ken had been fighting for all of 2 some odd years.

Yes, he was 188 pounds, but guess who else weighed exactly that much as well?

Doug Jones weighed 188 pounds against Ali when Ali had been fighting for just less then two years in 63'.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:17 AM   #29
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

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Norton would have defended against Shavers within a year or two and got KO'd.

It's that simple.
Norton thought he could beat the limited Shavers and would have been even more confident of doing so had he been champion. A badly faded Ali had beaten Shavers, Holmes had, Lyle had, Quarry had. So had Ron Stander and Bob Stallings, arguably Jimmy Young too.

Norton would have walked into the Shavers trap.

Of course it's worth speculating whether or not Norton could have coaxed Ali into a 4th fight had they both been title-holders in late '78 and through '79.
Plenty of people feel that Shaver's beat Ali. Even if you feel he won the battle, he most definitely lost the war.

You act as if everyone mentioned walked over Shaver's, which simply isn't true.

Shaver's also stopped Young and Holme's had to climb up off the canvas after nearly being killed by Earnie.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:21 AM   #30
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Default Re: Ken Norton's potential Title Reign

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Originally Posted by Russell View Post
Garcia was a 6'4 southpaw who beat Norton after Ken had been fighting for all of 2 some odd years.

Yes, he was 188 pounds, but guess who else weighed exactly that much as well?

Doug Jones weighed 188 pounds against Ali when Ali had been fighting for just less then two years in 63'.
That's all well and good Russell, but the general point that Chris, McVey and myself are making is that the guy was no contender. You can play the green card by saying that Norton was only 16-0, but then again Garcia was 12-2. Doesn't do much to bolster the argument. Ragardless of his being 6'4 and having a south paw stance, he was no puncher, and basically bore the title of journeyman for 95% of his career.
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