Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet

[OLD FOGEY]

Originally Posted by janitor

We are not acusing people of ducking or aportioning bame here. Just naming the most deserving challenger they did not fight for whatever reason.

I would still go with Ray. Tough call, though.

A point of clarification--I was not even implying ducking--my point was just that as Louis was not actually fighting, the years in which Bivins was the top man are in a kind of unique limbo as far as boxing history is concerned. He was just coming into his own when Louis went into the service and defeats in 1946 dropped him from the top position.

[TBooze]

John L Sullivan/Peter Jackson

Jim Corbett/Joe Goddard

(If Peter Jackson then name a number 2 choice)

Jim Jeffries/Denver Ed Martin(#2)

(If Jack Johnson then name a number 2 choice)

Jack Johnson/Sam McVey(#2)

(If Sam Langford then name a number 2 choice)

Jack Dempsey/Kid Norfolk(#2)

(If Harry Wills then name a number 2 choice)

Gene Tunney/George Godfrey

Joe Louis/Tiger Jack Fox

Ezzard Charles/Rocky Marciano

Rocky Marciano/Nino Valdez

Floyd Patterson/Zora Foley

Muhammad Ali/Eddie Manchen?

Larry Holmes/Pinklon Thomas

Michael Spinks/Tony Tucker

Mike Tyson/Evander Holyfield

Evander Holyfield/Lennox Lewis

Lennox Lewis/Wlad Klitschko

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by janitor

I think that Harry Greb did enough to deserve a shot at the title. He beat most of the fighters Dempsey defended his title against and tried to get a fight with Wills to establish himself as the No1 challenger.

Some sources suggest that Dempseys managment saw Godfrey as a big risk though Godfrey was never quite consistent enough to position himself as the No1 challenger.

The big what if is Godfrey fighting Wills to determine which of them was the outstanding challenger for Dempseys title. Godfreys managment tried to arrange such a fight.

That would have been an interesting fight,Dempsey once asked Greb to train himduring his later years ,but the money wasnt enough,and as Harry said"besides I want to fight you myself",Jack replied , "no one would pay to see it".I would!

[scartissue]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

Valdez did beat Charles in a close one but was coming off 4 losses in 53 to Baker(who was Ko'd by Moore and Satterfield in 1) Harold Johnson(who was KO'd by Moore)Billy Gilliam(who Charles beat in his next fight) and Archie Moore beat him also. Charles had a spectacular 2RD ko over Satterfield (who KO'd Baker(Valdez conqueror) and KO'd Coley Wallace in 8rds to jump ahead of Valdez(who won a disputed decision over Archie McBride) Valdez was supposed to get a shot but lost to Archie Moore again for elimination and then was dropped and dominated by Satterfield. I think there may have been a generous window of opportunity for Valdez in 54 but he was overshadowed by more deserving opponents because of his 4 losses in 53 and 2 in 1955. Marciano's record was spotless and the only easy defence was the nose tester vs Cockell but the follow up was vs the feared and well deserved Archie Moore

Bummy, I don't know. Maybe you're right but looking over the year end ratings of '53 and '54, Valdez was the #1 contender in both instances. We can wish this away but it certainly looks like he was sidestepped in lieu of the smaller Charles. Valdez was a big heavy for the 1950s and I think Al Weill was being prudent in giving him a wide berth. I don't believe Rocky had anything to do with it, I believe he'd take on a Mack truck. Also, for the record, I believe he'd take Valdez, but I do believe he was avoided by Marciano's shrewd manager.

Scartissue

[Dempsey1238]

First off Charles was ranked number 1 when he fought Marciano. Valez beat Charles and got the number 1 ranking yes. But in his next fight Valez put on a poor showing, and Charles got back to back wins over ranked contenders Wallace and Shatterfiled, because of this Valez went to number 3, and Charles jump back up to number 1 for the title shot.

[scartissue]

Are you certain on that? I don't have ratings during the year to compare, only stats so I'm not as fluent on it as you. However, looking at their wins, Valdez had a very impressive KO over Euro champ Heinz Neuhas, who was rated higher than both Wallace and Satterfield. Also, Charles was inactive for about 5-6 months leading up to the title shot. Anyways, I believe even if Charles was rated number 7, he would have got the title shot over Valdez. I saw Valdez' fight with Hurricane Jackson and he looked like a monster in there the way he annhilated Jackson. I think this is the reason Weill steered Rocky clear of Nino. I wll say this about the Cuban. This was about the best time of his career these 2 years because he was very erratic after this and before.

Scartissue

[Titan1]

Originally Posted by Robbi

Holmes would have smoked Page. Late TKO.

Ain't happening.Page had a good chin.