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Old 09-03-2007, 07:33 AM   #1
Sweet Science
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Default Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

There have been some great trainers in the history of boxing:

Ray Arcel, Angelo Dundee, Eddie Futch, Charlie Goldman, Emanuel Steward.
(I have missed many others and haven't included some good recent trainers - I don't think the modern trainers are a patch on the ones mentioned)

I know it's a fairly subjective question but who in your opinion was the very best of the bunch and why?
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

I like Futch for his almost unmatched ability to come up with the perfect strategy time after time and Steward for the fact that he produced so many top fighters via his own development.
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:09 AM   #3
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

Ray Arcel.
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:10 AM   #4
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

Thing is, these things are all relative. Different trainers for different fighters and who is to say what is more important? Quantity? Or improvement relative to talent?

If it's the former then Steward, I guess. But imagine you were basing this just upon his work with Taylor? A superstar trainer is clearly not what he needs, someone who will work him like a dog is what he needs.

On the other hand, Ingle is supposed to have improved Nelson from rank amatuer to world champ - "the least talented figher [he] ever trained". And what of Charlie Goldman?

Finally, what about Calzaghe's old man? He is clearly the best trainer in the world for Joe (Although he quite clearly needs a new f*cking manager) - if Joe says his pa is the best trainer in the world, I can't argue with him.

I'll agree with JT and go for Futch but this is only because he rated Burley as the best fighter he ever saw

So did Arcel, by the way. One of, anyway.
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

Having read "Corner Men" by Fried, and watched and listened to Eddie Futch describe how he developed his strategy for dealing with Ali, I have to go with him. Ray Arcel started earlier in the history of the sport, but he was also out of boxing for a couple of decades, making Futch the most experienced trainer boxing has produced.

He turned Joe Frazier into a champion with the bob and weave. He made Riddick Bowe into the best infighter of any tall champion. The man was a brilliant analyst and strategist. He also had an open mind. When Eddie Davis was training for his title challenge of Futch's charge, Mike Spinks, Davis's camp was experimenting with subliminal programming. Futch was asked what he thought of this questionable approach. He sagely and pragmatically replied that, "If it works, then it's a good idea." This is in sharp contrast to Angelo Dundee's long time hardcore aversion to weight training as a conditioning method for boxers.

When Futch was not actively working as a trainer, the television networks would have been very wise to try securing the services of this wonderfully articulate, dignified, composed and highly intelligent gentleman as a color commentator.

Whereas Charlie Goldman, Jack Blackburn and Gil Clancy achieved prominence mainly through their work with a single champion (Marciano, Louis and Griffith), Manny Steward produced a great many highly successful performers, particularly through his innovative Kronk program, starting with Hilmer Kenty. He's my second pick, after Futch.
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Having read "Corner Men" by Fried, and watched and listened to Eddie Futch describe how he developed his strategy for dealing with Ali, I have to go with him. Ray Arcel started earlier in the history of the sport, but he was also out of boxing for a couple of decades, making Futch the most experienced trainer boxing has produced.

He turned Joe Frazier into a champion with the bob and weave. He made Riddick Bowe into the best infighter of any tall champion. The man was a brilliant analyst and strategist. He also had an open mind. When Eddie Davis was training for his title challenge of Futch's charge, Mike Spinks, Davis's camp was experimenting with subliminal programming. Futch was asked what he thought of this questionable approach. He sagely and pragmatically replied that, "If it works, then it's a good idea." This is in sharp contrast to Angelo Dundee's long time hardcore aversion to weight training as a conditioning method for boxers.

When Futch was not actively working as a trainer, the television networks would have been very wise to try securing the services of this wonderfully articulate, dignified, composed and highly intelligent gentleman as a color commentator.

Whereas Charlie Goldman, Jack Blackburn and Gil Clancy achieved prominence mainly through their work with a single champion (Marciano, Louis and Griffith), Manny Steward produced a great many highly successful performers, particularly through his innovative Kronk program, starting with Hilmer Kenty. He's my second pick, after Futch.
Excellent post, I agree with your pick, Eddie Futch was the best of the best.
Though, I would have Ray Arcel 2nd followed by Dundee.
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:44 AM   #7
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

Eddie Futch, Angelo Dundee then Emanuel Steward.
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Old 09-03-2007, 02:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

I have to go with Emmanuel Steward. He is still churning em out. His methods change fighters (Cintron, Wlad, Lewis etc)

He is created fighters from scratch like Hearns.

He has worked with some of the best ever in each division i.e. Lewis at heavy, Moorer at 175, G Man at 160, Hearns at 154 etc
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Science
Excellent post, I agree with your pick, Eddie Futch was the best of the best.
Though, I would have Ray Arcel 2nd followed by Dundee.
Thanks for the compliment. I don't have particularly strong feelings on the issue, and I wouldn't expect a thread like this to engender any.

It's well known that for his comeback to boxing, Arcel ingeniously masterminded Peppermint Frazer's dethroning of Locche, a stunning return after a long absence.

Angelo Dundee turned Ali's wide looping hook into a shorter and much more dangerous punch (as Bonavena found out). Watching Angelo work Jimmy Ellis's corner against Ali causes me to wonder if Futch would have had more success coaching Jimmy in that situation, or if Dundee would have had as much success guiding Norton against Ali. I think of Dundee more as a motivator than strategist. It was always interesting to observe his work with lesser known contenders and veterans like San Diego's David Love.

Gil Clancy has been sharply criticized in some quarters for shortening Foreman's punches, but as Foreman regained the title with Dundee in his corner, Clancy provided ringside commentary on just the sort of knockout punch he helped George develop.


Now, a thread which asks who the worst trainers were might be considerably more provocative.
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

For imparting winning strategies and tactics to his fighters and resurrecting careers of many a fighter and giving them new dimensions as competitors Emanuel Steward ranks up there with the best of them, but I'd have to say Charlie Goldman is the best for his being a Michelangelo in sculpting a great champion named Rocky Marciano out of the raw material he was provided with.
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by red cobra
For imparting winning strategies and tactics to his fighters and resurrecting careers of many a fighter and giving them new dimensions as competitors Emanuel Steward ranks up there with the best of them, but I'd have to say Charlie Goldman is the best for his being a Michelangelo in sculpting a great champion named Rocky Marciano out of the raw material he was provided with.
So often, a trainer will try to turn somebody into a different type of boxer than nature intended, perhaps creating a converted southpaw, or changing his stance in some other elemental way. (Imagine Dundee trying to make Ali into a bob and weave bodypuncher, or Futch attempt to transform Frazier into a stick and move cutie.) The contributions Goldman made augmented, rather than altered Marciano's nature. He got Rocky to take shorter steps by tying his feet together, taught him that "The closer your elbows are to your body, the more power you have in your punches," and surprised Joe Louis with the cultivation of Marciano's hook. If he was still young enough to commit to Bonavena the way he committed to Marciano, who knows how far Ringo might have gone?
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:44 PM   #12
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Default Re: Who was the greatest ever Trainer?

I've always been a Ray Arcel fan look at the fighters he helped Duran, Charles and Frazier to name a few.
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