Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

[SuzieQ49]

J.C. could box and swat...... Ketchel was rugged and crude............

What makes you think choynski could box? He looked crude to me. Also what makes you think a glass jaw like JC's could take a ketchel punch?

but his skills as a fighter were NOT all that great..... Ketchel was wide open for counters.....

How would you know he was wide open for counters?

2ndly, what top fighter ever capitlized on this "flaw" that was close to stanleys weight?

3rdly, werent fighters so busy trying to defend stanleys atack they had no time to counter stanley?


I think Choynskis glass jaw is a MUCH BIGGER flaw in this type of matchup. stanley WILL connect on choynski, and thats all she wrote

[SuzieQ49]

I am sickened by the lack of stanley ketchel fans now a days on ESB. All the old timer fans on ESB have a huge woody when it comes to fitzsimmons, greb, sharkey, langford, jeffries, and choynski...it sickens me they dont like stanley. Go over to Cyberboxing, the old timer fans regard stanley very highly and give him his due respect. Mike Casey a famous historian of cyberboxing said stanley ketchel vs harry greb would be a toss up. I am not a big old timers fan, and I strongly hold against the white fighters who drew the color line. But Stanley was one of the few in my opinion who could have fought and succeeded in more modernly developed times.

[MRBILL]

Who said Joe Choyinski had a glass jaw? J.C. was not a big man; he was more so a light-heavyweight of 172 to 176 pounds..... I'm sure that weight drifted from time-to-time....... BUT! He has a KO over a "Green" Jack Johnson and several other greats from the past..........

I've seen enough of "Ketchel vs. Johnson," as I have that chopped-up fight on tape....... I also know Ketchel was not a stylist; he was a brawler / mauler....

In terms of great 160 lb. champions from 1887 to 2009, I think rugged ex-champs like "Ketchel & Greb" would be throughly out-boxed by technicians like "Ray Robinson, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, James Toney, Roy Jones & B-Hops" in a time machine.....

I think Ketchel and Greb fare better with other champs like "Walker, Zale, Graziano, Cerdan, LaMotta, Bo Bo, Pender, Rodrigo Valdez & Kelly Pavlik."

MR.BILL

[GPater11093]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Naw. Im just sick of him being underrated because the only film performance of him at middleweight is his worst performance in the 4th papke fight....The best knockouts and performances of Stanley Ketchel are not on film. I will tell you, if the 3rd Ketchel-Papke fight survived, people would hold alot higher opinion on the two. Its such a shame. You do get small glimpses though just how great he was. You also get to see his power work first hand against a 6'1 205lb ATG heavyweight with 1 punch.



here read this from Monte Cox's article on Ketchel

Ketchel went back to California for a fourth meeting with Billy Papke. This fight was a bitter disappointment. The Chronicle reported, “They fought like old women...Ketchel seemed absolutely lost, with no punch and with no accuracy.” The fight was lackadaisical by both parties. It was a sloppy fight although Ketchel claimed he broke his hand in an early hand. It went to a 20 round decision with the referee declaring Ketchel the winner but the newspapers said a draw would have been a fairer verdict. It is highly unfortunate, this being perhaps Ketchel's worst performance, that this fight is one of only two surviving films available of Stanley Ketchel, the other being the Johnson fiasco.



Here is why I like Stanley Ketchel

1. In a racially motivated era HE DID NOT DRAW THE COLOR LINE and in fact took on the two best and baddest black heavyweights of his era Jack Johnson and Sam Langford. You think Dempsey or Tunney would do that? Not a chance!

2. He was a fighting Champion and DUCKED NO ONE- He defended his title every month AND against the best contenders around, some of them very good fighters. He usually knocked all of them out.


3. Punching ability- The man was one of the best all around punchers ever. He hit like a mule with either hand, he attacked with a wide arsenal of punches at all angles, he was one of the best finishers of all time, and a great body puncher. He had tiger like aggresion in there and blistering handspeed when he engaged. I also like the way he kept his right hand by his chin and put wait on his back foot similiar to max schmeling stance...most old timers fought straight up with hands by there waist. You can get small glimpses of this by watching the film even though stanley is not at his best.

cheers for that Suzy good post

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

I am sickened by the lack of stanley ketchel fans now a days on ESB. All the old timer fans on ESB have a huge woody when it comes to fitzsimmons, greb, sharkey, langford, jeffries, and choynski...it sickens me they dont like stanley. Go over to Cyberboxing, the old timer fans regard stanley very highly and give him his due respect. Mike Casey a famous historian of cyberboxing said stanley ketchel vs harry greb would be a toss up. I am not a big old timers fan, and I strongly hold against the white fighters who drew the color line. But Stanley was one of the few in my opinion who could have fought and succeeded in more modernly developed times.

I like Ketchel but i honestly dont see hm being effective at the top level fighting other great MWs using 'modern' rules. But his natural gifts take him quite far

[mattdonnellon]

One thing puzzles me about Ketchel, if he could hit as hard and was as ferocious as some claim, how come many good but maybe not great, fighters lasted the distance OR into later rounds with him? Not to dispute that he was a good puncher, he obviously was.
Also someone claimed Fitz handled Choynski with ease, in fact he was practically ko'ed himself early in that fight.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

I think Choynskis glass jaw is a MUCH BIGGER flaw in this type of matchup. stanley WILL connect on choynski, and thats all she wrote

While Choynski's chin might not have been the best it was far from being glass.

In his prime he was only getting stopped by the elite punchers of the era and generaly at heavyweight.

Hard to say how the fight would go.

Ketchel winning by stopege is certainly a distinnct posibility but I think that Choynski was the better boxer and the better finisher of the two.

[catasyou]

A bit off topic but how many fights does Choynsky have on film?
How about Ketchel?