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Old 09-14-2007, 08:31 PM   #76
Bummy Davis
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

One Punch Power Marciano#1 Dempsey #2, Louis Best Combo/power/puncher, Satterfield At 174lbs(one Punch) Archie Moore,joe Chonisky,sam Langford
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Old 09-15-2007, 11:45 AM   #77
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
No, you certainly don't. All right then. Who else might you categorize highly in the 180 to 200 pound range in this respect?
Tom sharkey might not be a bad chice as Maxmoorer has suggested. Rex Layne is another.

On the other side of the coin there are heavyweights who are not particularly hard punchers but still send oponents to the canvas regularly due to their punching technique. Ezzard Charles springs to mind.

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Old 09-15-2007, 05:41 PM   #78
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Jimmy Braddock was not the only one who said Max Baer was a harder puncher than Louis, but Maxie tended to telegraph before his loss to Loughran. (Tommy advised him of the fact he was tipping off his punches after outboxing him.) The Larruper also threw much longer shots, which generated more steam, but were also easier to avoid.

No, Louis wasn't the hardest puncher blow for blow, but nobody could put together their combinations like he did, and his well balanced and short traveling strikes were economically consistent in their force, with each impact building on the effects of the last. (Buddy Baer described what getting punched by Louis was like in graphically lucid terms. That account is readily found on-line.) The impression I get is that each short and hard to avoid whack knocked an opponent into the next one, for an unparalleled accumulative beat-down.

The hardest punch Louis ever delivered was the one which floored Uzcudun for a count of seven (Referee Arthur Donovan also described it as the hardest punch he ever witnessed, but he wasn't on the receiving end of it. Uzcudun reportedly agreed with Carnera, Braddock and Schmeling that Baer was indeed the hardest puncher they faced, although Louis was their best opponent.) He weighed 200-1/2 for that match. The hardest punch Louis delivered while weighing under 200 would seem to be the right hand he knocked out Braddock with.

Max Baer weighed 197 for Franke Campbell, and was reportedly never as ruthless again.

Schmeling was a counterpuncher who preferred to hook his rights on an opponent moving in. The shot he blasted down Stribling with is a classic example of this. But he wasn't somebody who committed to his right with abandon, never getting full extension behind it. He needed his foe's cooperation to deliver it with maximun lethality.

I absolutely stand behind Dempsey in this category. The huge Willard stood up to everything Firpo could dish out for over six rounds (when he was past 40 years old), and he withstood everything a beefed up Jack Johnson could deliver for over 25 rounds. Yet Dempsey blasted him down in a minute and a half. He also bounced the Foreman sized Firpo up and down like a basketball, before drubbing him down early in round two with a single uppercut which left Luis on the deck for substantially longer than the count of ten. He dropped Tunney for the only time in Gene's career with essentially two punches; the mid ring counter right which wobbled Tunney to the ropes, and the hook which caught Tunney as he rebounded off those ropes. Just two shots to put him down.

Marciano pounded away on opponents his own weight, for the most part, never having the chance to demonstrate his power against a modern sized superheavyweight.

Louis needed a few rounds to drop Carnera. Max Baer needed one. (Of course I realize that results like this can be misleading. Foster reunified the LHW against Rondon in two rounds, a loss which Vincente followed up by again getting kayoed in two by Ron Lyle. Rondon's very next outing saw him go ten rounds with 200 pound Earnie Shavers. Go figure.)
Dempsey was undoubtedly a strong candidate on this thread, but I think several of your points are exaggerated.

1. You emphasize Willard's and Firpo's size, but is there any evidence in boxing history that huge heavyweights were more difficult for top punchers to knock out. I think, in and of itself, this is a dubious arguement. Dempsey only scored 1 knockout in six fights against Miske, Gibbons, and Tunney. He knocked out all the slow moving big guys. So did Louis. And Marciano knocked out every opponent he fought over 210 lbs. What is your evidence that big guys are harder to knock out?

2. As for Willard, he had been off three years, was pushing 38 ( he was actually older than Louis when Louis fought Marciano) and was clearly not in the best of shape. You mention the Johnson fight, but that was four years earlier, and Johnson's power certainly could be questioned, at least by this time in his career. Moran had gone the full twenty with him. He did not knock out the ordinary Battling Johnson. The much smaller Flynn was still on his feet, if bloody, when the police intervened. One has to go back to the old Jeffries, who was worn down, for something like an impressive knockout, and before that Ketchel and Burns were much smaller men. As for Willard lasting to the eighth with Firpo, almost everyone who could fight did. Brennan lasted until the 12th. Spalla to the 14th. Wills, and Weinert and Spalla in rematches went the full distance with Firpo. As a matter of fact, other than Weinert, what good fighter did Firpo knockout early? He generally took quite a while.

3. As for the Dempsey knockout of Firpo being super impressive, Firpo had been knocked out in the first round back in 1918 by the 167 lb Angel Rodriguez, who was giving away fifty pounds.

4. Dropping Tunney is certainly impressive, but Tunney hadn't exactly been in the ring with a murderer's row of punchers. Probably only Carpentier had a real rep as a puncher and he was smallish and past his best.

5. In fairness to Dempsey, if I am less impressed than you are by knockouts of Willard and Firpo, as well as Fulton and Morris, I would be far more impressed with the knockouts of Sharkey and Miske.

On a slightly different issue, If Uzcudun was really quoted as saying Baer punched harder than Louis, it really makes no sense. Uzcudun went twenty with Baer. Louis smashed his face in with the first right hand he hit him with and dropped him for the only time in his career. How could Uzcudun then arrive at the conclusion that Baer hit harder than Louis? Maybe Baer did, but I don't understand how Uzcudun could attest to it.
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