Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s)

IntentionalButt · 07-29-2009, 05:23 PM

The Larry that beat up Muhammad in defense of the WBC title vs. the Muhammad that beat up the whole world (before slowing down a step post-exile and still beating up Larry in sparring in the early 70s).

This was inspired by both the recent Holmes interview that Rumsfeld and Boxing Girl did on the OTR show, as well as the Classic Forum all-time heavyweights ranking (in which Holmes netted about 1/3 the points as Ali).

Now, I'm not going to try and fight the uphill battle that Holmes rightfully deserved to be #1 (although #3 may be a bit too far a swing in the other direction) - a case can be made, but a case under duress and fought uphill. Ali at his best is hard to deny. But stylistically, if you could put a wrinkle in time and take the closest to prime Ali available (edit: the vintage just preceding the exile) and pit him head-to-head against Larry at his peak in terms of ability (except in this fight, not playing nice and pulling punches as he did in October 1980) - how would the fight play out?

Addie · 07-29-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IntentionalButt

The Larry that beat up Muhammad in defense of the WBC title vs. the Muhammad that beat up Larry in sparring years earlier.

This was inspired by both the recent Holmes interview that Rumsfeld and Boxing Girl did on the OTR show, as well as the Classic Forum all-time heavyweights ranking (in which Holmes netted about 1/3 the points as Ali).

Now, I'm not going to try and fight the uphill battle that Holmes rightfully deserved to be #1 (although #3 may be a bit too far a swing in the other direction) - a case can be made, but a case under duress and fought uphill. Ali at his best is hard to deny. But stylistically, if you could put a wrinkle in time and take the closest to prime Ali available (we'll go with immediately post-"hiatus" given that the what-if period is an unknown quantity) and pit him head-to-head against Larry at his peak in terms of ability (except in this fight, not playing nice and pulling punches as he did in October 1980) - how would the fight play out?

Someone needs to explain to me why it's never Holmes (prime) vs Ali (prime)?

IntentionalButt · 07-29-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Addie

Someone needs to explain to me why it's never Holmes (prime) vs Ali (prime)?

Is that not more or less what I'm doing right here and now?

What would you offer as their respective primes? By early 80s for Larry I mean real early...literally 1980 - when they actually did fight. Do you feel he was past his best by then?

Addie · 07-29-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IntentionalButt

Is that not more or less what I'm doing right here and now?

What would you offer as their respective primes? By early 80s for Larry I mean real early...literally 1980 - when they actually did fight. Do you feel he was past his best by then?

I thought it was common knowledge that the prime Muhammad Ali was the one taking contenders and champions apart in shockingly easy fashion? Liston 1, Folley, Williams, etc. The pre-exile version, of course.

IntentionalButt · 07-29-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Addie

I thought it was common knowledge that the prime Muhammad Ali was the one taking contenders and champions apart in shockingly easy fashion? Liston 1, Folley, Williams, etc. The pre-exile version, of course.

I've seen/heard conflicting opinions. We can err on the side of early rather than late (in relation to the dark years many claim "would have been Ali's prime") if you think it will give a provide a more accurate matchup of both fighters at their best. Liston-Folley Ali was nasty.

Changed.

Vote accordingly. Apologies to the few who already cast theirs (unless it doesn't impact your choice).

Addie · 07-29-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IntentionalButt

I've seen/heard conflicting opinions. We can err on the side of early rather than late (in relation to the dark years many claim "would have been Ali's prime") if you think it will give a provide a more accurate matchup of both fighters at their best. Liston-Folley Ali was nasty.

Changed.

Vote accordingly. Apologies to the few who already cast theirs (unless it doesn't impact your choice).

I think Holmes is more successful against a more stationary Ali, which is what we had after his exile. I think the fleet footed Ali of the 60s, is effective at creating angles on Holmes, who was all a bit one dimensional with the way he came on the offensive. Both had great jabs, Ali having the slight edge in handspeed, but it's the intangibles that make him the winner in my book. Ali just seemed to be on a higher plane to everyone else when it came to will, heart, and determination. He always went the extra inch, which is why I think he gets out a closely fought decision.

PetethePrince · 07-29-2009, 06:30 PM

I'm confused. Is it prime Ali vs prime Holmes? Personally an early 70's Ali is much more foregone than an early 80's Holmes. Thought this was common knowledge...

IntentionalButt · 07-29-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

I'm confused. Is it prime Ali vs prime Holmes? Personally an early 70's Ali is much more foregone than an early 80's Holmes. Thought this was common knowledge...

Late 60's (see thread title...changed about half an hour before your post...). I had originally been thinking FOTC Ali vs. the Holmes that beat him (as the signature versions of each). On second thought, the younger Ali was faster, hungrier, and probably all-around better. Thread has been changed accordingly.

Bill Butcher · 07-29-2009, 07:05 PM

64-67 Ali beats 79-82 Holmes in a close but clear decision, it would be a classic technical boxing match with Ali beating him to the punch the majority of the time, speed kills in this one.

Ps. Anyone that votes anyone by KO is living in dreamland.

Robbi · 07-29-2009, 07:11 PM

Ali v Holmes in their primes is one of my fav dream matches.

dezbeast · 07-29-2009, 07:13 PM

Holmes would have decisioned Ali IMO in what may have been an absolute tactical masterpiece between possibly two of the greatest heavyweight masterboxers ever.

PetethePrince · 07-29-2009, 07:22 PM

Ali has just proved so much. His superior mobility and speed let me think he outpoints Holmes in a prime vs prime matchup. Both have terrific recuperative power, but Ali has an edge in strategy and on a mental & thinkers aspect too. Ali has has the slightly better chin to combat Holmes' superior power.

I also think a prime Ali from 66-67 threw more punches and had better stamina. Ali's stamina and punch output in his prime are quite underrated. Anther reason why I see a prime Ali beating a FOTC Frazier (I know that's not related, just a side point).

lefthook31 · 07-29-2009, 07:45 PM

Ali mostly based on the speed factor. Would be interesting to see who would establish the jab first.

Duodenum · 07-29-2009, 11:45 PM

Put Futch instead of Giachetti in Larry's corner, and the Holmes of Cooney and Cobb might be able to pull off a decision win over the mythical Ali of 1968 and 1969, if anybody could. (I wouldn't place any money on that outcome.)

For his style of boxing, the youthful Muhammad was a fast starter, but Folley did have some success in the opening three rounds. Larry was bigger and stronger, with a longer reach and greater durability than Zora. Ali didn't mind giving away bodyshots, and Futch would have had Holmes exploiting that to score points.

The Predator · 07-30-2009, 12:06 AM

prime Ali take this one. he´s much faster in his hands, very hard to hit and moves way better than Holmes. It wouldn´t be any KO but Holmes would have a hard night, that´s for sure. Holmes was a little of a copy of Ali, only not as fast and definetly not as sharp as prime Ali.
Might sound that I don´t give much for Holmes? Wrong, on my list he´s nr 2 or 3 all time.
It´s just that there has never been a faster HW than a prime Ali and I´m not just talking handspeed.
The Predator

View Poll Results: The originator or the imitator?
Ali KO	3	4.23%
Ali PTS	51	71.83%
Holmes KO	1	1.41%
Holmes PTS	16	22.54%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

07-29-2009, 05:23 PM	#1
IntentionalButt Nash Equilibrium Debunker East Side VIP Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Boston Posts: 123,230 vCash: 9953	Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s) The Larry that beat up Muhammad in defense of the WBC title vs. the Muhammad that beat up the whole world (before slowing down a step post-exile and still beating up Larry in sparring in the early 70s). This was inspired by both the recent Holmes interview that Rumsfeld and Boxing Girl did on the OTR show, as well as the Classic Forum all-time heavyweights ranking (in which Holmes netted about 1/3 the points as Ali). Now, I'm not going to try and fight the uphill battle that Holmes rightfully deserved to be #1 (although #3 may be a bit too far a swing in the other direction) - a case can be made, but a case under duress and fought uphill. Ali at his best is hard to deny. But stylistically, if you could put a wrinkle in time and take the closest to prime Ali available (edit: the vintage just preceding the exile) and pit him head-to-head against Larry at his peak in terms of ability (except in this fight, not playing nice and pulling punches as he did in October 1980) - how would the fight play out? Last edited by IntentionalButt; 07-29-2009 at 06:49 PM.
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07-29-2009, 06:30 PM	#7
PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded East Side VIP Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 15,207 vCash: 1200	Re: Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s) I'm confused. Is it prime Ali vs prime Holmes? Personally an early 70's Ali is much more foregone than an early 80's Holmes. Thought this was common knowledge...
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07-29-2009, 07:05 PM	#9
Bill Butcher Erik`El Terrible`Morales East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Phoenix Marie`s ass, Fritzl Residence, Glasgow, Scotland. Posts: 15,580 vCash: 1000	Re: Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s) 64-67 Ali beats 79-82 Holmes in a close but clear decision, it would be a classic technical boxing match with Ali beating him to the punch the majority of the time, speed kills in this one. Ps. Anyone that votes anyone by KO is living in dreamland.
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07-29-2009, 07:11 PM	#10
Robbi Marvelous East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: UK Posts: 7,766 vCash: 1000	Re: Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s) Ali v Holmes in their primes is one of my fav dream matches.
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07-29-2009, 07:13 PM	#11
dezbeast Journeyman ESB Jr Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 276 vCash: 1000	Re: Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s) Holmes would have decisioned Ali IMO in what may have been an absolute tactical masterpiece between possibly two of the greatest heavyweight masterboxers ever.
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07-29-2009, 07:22 PM	#12
PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded East Side VIP Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 15,207 vCash: 1200	Re: Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s) Ali has just proved so much. His superior mobility and speed let me think he outpoints Holmes in a prime vs prime matchup. Both have terrific recuperative power, but Ali has an edge in strategy and on a mental & thinkers aspect too. Ali has has the slightly better chin to combat Holmes' superior power. I also think a prime Ali from 66-67 threw more punches and had better stamina. Ali's stamina and punch output in his prime are quite underrated. Anther reason why I see a prime Ali beating a FOTC Frazier (I know that's not related, just a side point).
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07-29-2009, 07:45 PM	#13
lefthook31 Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: in a boxing gym near you Posts: 10,498 vCash: 1000	Re: Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s) Ali mostly based on the speed factor. Would be interesting to see who would establish the jab first.
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07-29-2009, 11:45 PM	#14
Duodenum Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,700 vCash: 1000	Re: Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s) Put Futch instead of Giachetti in Larry's corner, and the Holmes of Cooney and Cobb might be able to pull off a decision win over the mythical Ali of 1968 and 1969, if anybody could. (I wouldn't place any money on that outcome.) For his style of boxing, the youthful Muhammad was a fast starter, but Folley did have some success in the opening three rounds. Larry was bigger and stronger, with a longer reach and greater durability than Zora. Ali didn't mind giving away bodyshots, and Futch would have had Holmes exploiting that to score points.
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07-30-2009, 12:06 AM	#15
The Predator Gatekeeper ESB Full Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 480 vCash: 1000	Re: Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s) prime Ali take this one. he´s much faster in his hands, very hard to hit and moves way better than Holmes. It wouldn´t be any KO but Holmes would have a hard night, that´s for sure. Holmes was a little of a copy of Ali, only not as fast and definetly not as sharp as prime Ali. Might sound that I don´t give much for Holmes? Wrong, on my list he´s nr 2 or 3 all time. It´s just that there has never been a faster HW than a prime Ali and I´m not just talking handspeed. The Predator
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