Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by cross_trainer

That depends on how long Wlad spends playing around with his extremely cautious "measuring" style that he uses in the first few rounds.

Six or seven, perhaps. Maybe fewer if he figures out the crouch. A couple more if Rocky's chin was better than I think it is.

So how live to you see Rocky during these rounds? Let's say he lasts seven rounds or just over 20 minutes of action is all he can muster, and let's say we agree that Rocky would be going like hell for the win during those twenty minutes.

What is Rocky doing? He's organised, compact, hits really hard. Wlad is not that well organised under pressure. Against Chagaev, Wlad was sure to be chased only so far. He could regroup and re-set. Rocky won't give him that chance, will he?

[SuzieQ49]

Very few people expected Wlad to break Brewster in the rematch but he did.

In regards to brewster,

I am a huge wlad fan but even I admit brewster was WAY past it for the rematch. coming off a detached retina. the only live version of brewster wlad fought, brewster knocked wlad out. Brewster is nowhere near marcianos class, yet brewsters non stop will aggresion and punching power forced wlad into panic mode, WITH emanuel steward in his corner. Marciano is a step above brewster in these categories.


Lamon Brewster actually said in a interview "I have never seen a fighter with as weak a jaw as wladimir klitschko. emanuel steward as done a great job covering up his chin. But it is so weak." Lamon further commented on how he barely landed on wlads chin at one point and he saw wlads legs shake all the way down and wlad got glassy eyed.


I don't know if I agree with this, but it is interesting nonetheless.

[SuzieQ49]

I don't know if Crosstrainer realizes wlad has a huge history of having problems with reletnless aggresive punchers with huge heart and stamina. It is literally Wladimirs kyrptonite, as much as i hate to admit it. You ask me how wlad does against charles and walcott? alot better than he does against Marciano and Dempsey

[SuzieQ49]

Let me reiterate. Wlads biggest weaknesses are Durability, Stamina, and Panic Attacks. Unfortunetley for Wladimir..Marcianos biggest strengths(Punching Power, Relentless pressure, and high volume of punches) are kryptonite to wlads biggest weaknesses. Marciano has the power to knock wlad out, the relentless pressure to force wlad to tire, and has the high volume of non stop punching and will to force wladimir into a panic attack like brewster and purrity did. Only few fighters in history have the tools to make wlad pay for these weaknesses and Marciano is one of them


My final prognosis: Until Wladimir shows to me he can take on a world class aggresive relelentless puncher and beat him handily...there is no way I can ever realistically pick him against an ATG puncher who happens to be the most relentless determined attacker of all time. Stylistically...Marciano should be Wladimir's nightmare.

[cross_trainer]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

I don't know if Crosstrainer realizes wlad has a huge history of having problems with reletnless aggresive punchers with huge heart and stamina. It is literally Wladimirs kyrptonite, as much as i hate to admit it. You ask me how wlad does against charles and walcott? alot better than he does against Marciano and Dempsey

No, I definitely agree that Wlad has trouble with pressure fighters, but I don't see Marciano as having the assets to beat him. For the record, Brewster would get destroyed by Marciano head-to-head...but...he has a better attributes to beat Wladimir. His chin is more proven than Marciano's (regrettable, but true). He's four inches taller. Has ten more inches in reach. And he is--dare I say it?--faster.

Nevertheless, he took a massive beating before he got to Wlad (who suffered a panic attack / green man attack / vaseline malfunction / whatever the heck it was).

[SuzieQ49]

His chin is more proven than Marciano's (regrettable, but true). He's four inches taller. Has ten more inches in reach. And he is--dare I say it?--faster.

1. There is no evidence Brewster has a better chin than Marciano. If you want to go by "proven" then I can say Marciano is a much more proven puncher and finisher than brewster.

2. 3 inches Taller, not 4. Also I do not see the big deal here. Sam Peter is 6'0, only 1" taller than marciano and he floored wladimir 3 times. In fact Marcianos lack of height in his crouch is Ideal. Unlike Brewster who got hit cleanly every single minute of the fight, marciano will be very difficult for wlad to hit with a clean shot.

3. Rocky is faster than brewster- I watched Brewster-Liakohkovic last night on ESPN replay, and I was shocked at how slow brewsters hands were and how unnefective he was getting inside(Unlike rocky). Rocky tracked down master boxers and got undernearth of them much easier than brewster has done to boxers like ettiene, shufford, Sergei, Wlad, etc. certain if you compare film of a 1951-1952 Marciano and Brewster of 00s, rocky has the clear edge in speed.

4. Rocky owns severeal Attributes (Workrate, Volume Punching, Finishing Skills, IronWill, Aggresion) that far exceeds that of Brewsters. All of the attributes I listed above are vital into forcing wlad into a panic attack.

Nevertheless, he took a massive beating before he got to Wlad (who suffered a panic attack / green man attack / vaseline malfunction / whatever the heck it was).

Exactley the type of reason he will lose to Marciano. Rocco will force wlad right into a panic attack once he lands on his chin and applies some pressure. It has happened to wlad more than once.




Ultimatley Crosstrainer you are picking the underdog here. You are picking a man who has had a history of falling apart to vastly inferior men with the same styles as Marciano.

[McGrain]

I guess I am with Q on this one though I don't have his confidence. Rocky is going to keep the pressure on and I think Wlad will make crucial mistakes. He looked paniced, for a moment, even against Chagaev when he was in complete control of the fight. I think Marciano has a good chance to force the issue based upon these and other factors i've raised in posts myself.

I wouldn't be betting on it of course.

[SuzieQ49]

I really do not see how Wlad could possibly take any of the ATG relentless punchers Marciano, Dempsey, Frazier, Tyson, Foreman, Liston, Louis. On the otherhand, I see Wladimir doing quite well against the ATG boxers like holmes, johnson, patterson, tunney, walcott, charles, schmeling, sharkey. QUITE well.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

My final prognosis: Until Wladimir shows to me he can take on a world class aggresive relelentless puncher and beat him handily...there is no way I can ever realistically pick him against an ATG puncher who happens to be the most relentless determined attacker of all time.

What if i turned that around, and said: Until Marciano shows me he is able to handle a world class, 6'6 245lbs skillful boxer with fast hands and top end power and beat him handily..... there is no way I can ever realistically pick him over Wlad.

[cross_trainer]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

1. There is no evidence Brewster has a better chin than Marciano. If you want to go by "proven" then I can say Marciano is a much more proven puncher and finisher than brewster.

Well, he took massive shots from a 245 pound man who's known as an incredibly hard puncher. Marciano got dropped by Walcott and Moore who, whatever their merits as hitters, were not remotely in Klitschko's league. In the second, he was half-blind and still didn't get knocked out for a ten count.

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

2. 3 inches Taller, not 4. Also I do not see the big deal here. Sam Peter is 6'0, only 1" taller than marciano and he floored wladimir 3 times. In fact Marcianos lack of height in his crouch is Ideal. Unlike Brewster who got hit cleanly every single minute of the fight, marciano will be very difficult for wlad to hit with a clean shot.

5'10" vs. 6'2". Or is boxrec wrong about Marciano's height (as it is on occasion with various fighters)? Peter's also 6'2", with a 10 inch reach advantage over Marciano just like Brewster.

On the elusiveness point, I agree. Marciano would be hard to tag cleanly.

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

3. Rocky is faster than brewster- I watched Brewster-Liakohkovic last night on ESPN replay, and I was shocked at how slow brewsters hands were and how unnefective he was getting inside(Unlike rocky).

Ineffective at getting inside: yes. Slower? Probably not. I just rewatched Rocky vs. Walcott II and compared it to the first round of Klitschko-Brewster I. Brewster was faster.

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Rocky tracked down master boxers and got undernearth of them much easier than brewster has done to boxers like ettiene, shufford, Sergei, Wlad, etc. certain if you compare film of a 1951-1952 Marciano and Brewster of 00s, rocky has the clear edge in speed.

Speed? No. Savvy, elusiveness, and ability to cut of the ring more like it. Marciano was several times the fighter Brewster is.

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

4. Rocky owns severeal Attributes (Workrate, Volume Punching, Finishing Skills, IronWill, Aggresion) that far exceeds that of Brewsters. All of the attributes I listed above are vital into forcing wlad into a panic attack.

All of those things are important, but many won't come into play vs. Wlad. It's hard to have a massive workrate and volume punching against a guy you can't consistently get inside against. I also wonder if Rocky would carry his power up to superheavyweight.

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Exactley the type of reason he will lose to Marciano. Rocco will force wlad right into a panic attack once he lands on his chin and applies some pressure. It has happened to wlad more than once.

It's not like Wlad has an automatic "off" button.

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Ultimatley Crosstrainer you are picking the underdog here. You are picking a man who has had a history of falling apart to vastly inferior men with the same styles as Marciano.

Brewster's style is nothing like Marciano's, except in the loose sense that they're both pressure fighters with lots of heart. If Brewster's was similar, he would have been hit a lot less against Wlad and beaten Wlad much sooner. Marciano has the right style to beat Wlad, but I don't think he has the size to do it.

[cross_trainer]

If it makes you feel any better, Louis destroys both brothers.

[Unforgiven]

I suppose in theory Wladimir Klitschko could jab and grab and smother his way to a decision.

But I'd expect Rocky to get him out of there sometime with his sheer brute power and aggression. And Marciano was clever, he looked for weaknesses and had a knack of not becoming predictable in his pattern and pace of fighting.

The guys Klitschko has been beating have been mostly awful, and he's been KO'd twice in his prime, and troubled by lesser fighters than Marciano. Some of these "challengers" he fights are just there for a payday and dont even care to win, at least Don Cockell came to fight !
Wlad's not a great fighter and I think he'd be flakey against a true all-time great puncher/fighter, for example Rocky Marciano.

[mr. magoo]

Wladimir Klitschko is not a top 5 heavyweight, whereas Marciano is. This is not however a comparison of legacies where Marciano towers above Klitschko. Legacies and head to head matchups across eras are two totally different animals.

There is an old, but very true adage that the smaller guy usually has to work harder than his larger opponent. With an 8 inch height deficit and more than 50 lbs in weight, Marciano would have to work extremely hard from the opening bell to gain any kind of footing on Klitschko. Since working with Steward, Wlad has shored up his boxing skills, improved his jab and footwork, and isn't the easy target or vulnerable prey that he was 5+ years ago. Additionally, his primary weakness is left hooks, and not so much the right hand. He also still posses plenty of fire power, and may well be a harder hitter than Walcott, Moore, or the aging version of Louis that Rocky fought.

I don't see very many similarities between the opponents who beat Wlad and Rocky Marciano. In fariness, I also don't see a great deal in common when contrasting Wlad to some of the guys who troubled the Rock, but I DO SEE some attributes that could spell serious trouble for Rocky. A tremendous size and strength advantage coupled with a very long and sharp jab, plus plenty of fire power to boot..

Once again, legacy wise, Wlad will never touch Marciano's career profile.. But head to head, this may be a mismatch..

[SuzieQ49]

What if i turned that around, and said: Until Marciano shows me he is able to handle a world class, 6'6 245lbs skillful boxer with fast hands and top end power and beat him handily..... there is no way I can ever realistically pick him over Wlad.

Difference is his while Marciano is unproven against this type of fighter...Wlad already proved in the brewster purrity and even peter fight he is highly incapable against vastly inferior relentless punchers in the mold of a marciano. While Marciano is unproven...Wlad has technically proven a failure.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Difference is his while Marciano is unproven against this type of fighter...Wlad already proved in the brewster purrity and even peter fight he is highly incapable of beating vastly inferior relentless punchers in the mold of a marciano. While Marciano is unproven...Wlad has technically proven a failure.

What does Marciano have in common with a 6'4", 225 lbs south paw?