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Old 09-19-2009, 07:32 PM   #61
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Pardon? Its not an excuse, its his fault, what kind of excuse would that be? Its just stating a fact.

You cant tell me that you dont think his skills declined.
His skills did not decline, whether he elected to use them the same upper bodymovment is his fault and its not a knock on why Holyfield won.

When you look at the intangibles on this fight everything is either even or stacked in Mike's favour but Tyson fans would have you believe its the opposite even though Holyfield has been in many hard fights, was older than Mike and was coming off two terrible performances.

Is there anyone in Boxing who was more equipped stylistically to to deal with what Tyson brough to the table on any night ? because id suggest there aren't many, that should tell you something about why he (Holyfield) won.
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Old 09-19-2009, 07:40 PM   #62
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Yes inactivity is the death of any fighter. Boxing has to be second nature and the movements have to come naturally. Holy was active, and its not like he had to be too savvy against Tyson. I never thought Tyson ever looked like his old self. He made so many amatuer mistakes its almost like he was learning to box all over again, and his style had to be dialed in perfectly to work, because he was not boxing from the outside he was coming forward slipping and countering. The biggest thing that never returned was his timing, and thats a big part of the inactivity.
Mike was not inactive. Here come more excuses about how many rounds Boxed

Also i dont think Holyfield's tools were sharpened by getting beat up by Riddick Bowe do you?

hindsight after the fact is great but Mike was favourite to win for a reason.

If Holyfield got beat by Tyson there is no waay you people would be giving Holyfield the benefit of the doubt for the things you are giving Mike the benefit of the doubt for and you know it.
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Old 09-19-2009, 07:43 PM   #63
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

I see what youre saying, but then to me the events of the fight and in both their careers in the following years dont back that up

theoretically holyfield had been in all the wars so people thought he was past it, even shot, but the fight and further fights for another few years proved he wasnt...whereas the fight and basically the rest of his career showed Tyson had declined a long way.

A great win for Holyfield im not trying to say it isnt either. That Tyson would still beat a lot of good fighters.
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Old 09-19-2009, 07:44 PM   #64
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

Holyfield was just better in the 90s thats about it
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Old 09-19-2009, 07:44 PM   #65
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

Holyfield is not a good style matchup for mike, but I think prime Mike beats him.
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Old 09-19-2009, 07:52 PM   #66
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by gooners!! View Post
Mike was not inactive. Here come more excuses about how many rounds Boxed

Also i dont think Holyfield's tools were sharpened by getting beat up by Riddick Bowe do you?

hindsight after the fact is great but Mike was favourite to win for a reason.

If Holyfield got beat by Tyson there is no waay you people would be giving Holyfield the benefit of the doubt for the things you are giving Mike the benefit of the doubt for and you know it.
Im not making an excuse for Tyson, but if you cant see the difference between how he fought before and after prison this arguement is worthless. Holyfield was still active enough to have his timing and ability to fight a tough grueling fight. He wasnt getting beat up either. He lost to Bowe, but in a fight he almost won. Where else was he getting beat up?
Lewis always gets credit for his advancement under Steward, but noone wants to hear about Tyson's skills diminishing after he got away from Rooney and went to jail and really his skills starting eroding after the Spinks fight.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:06 PM   #67
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Im not making an excuse for Tyson, but if you cant see the difference between how he fought before and after prison this arguement is worthless. Holyfield was still active enough to have his timing and ability to fight a tough grueling fight. He wasnt getting beat up either. He lost to Bowe, but in a fight he almost won. Where else was he getting beat up?
Lewis always gets credit for his advancement under Steward, but noone wants to hear about Tyson's skills diminishing after he got away from Rooney and went to jail and really his skills starting eroding after the Spinks fight.
Its not that i cant see it, its that you wanna bring everything!!! back to that to make your point and that is irrelevant imo, because Tyson and Holyfield fought each other at a stage where they were on a par physically or like id argue Mike was in better shape than Holyfield.


He was getting a right shellacking towards the end of the Bowe fight it was a very tough fight and he ended up face down on the canvas at one point.


Thats because when you discuss Mike its tied in with him being the best HW that ever lived by fans that dismiss all his shortcoming and overrate him, is it any wonder people want to keep a perspective on things when talking about Mike's career.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:09 PM   #68
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

Not so much a case of style as it was of substance.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:14 PM   #69
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

Gooners though, you cant just say hed been in some tough fights so was clearly further into a decline that tyson

becuase thats not what happened is it? I mean its a theory, and people in 1996 thought it was the case, then they were proved wrong.

He beat tyson, then was beating him again in the rematch and frustrated him into getting disqualified, then had another series of title fights for years afterwards, whereas tyson was so far gone he never really did anything of note afterwards - quite a decline from being a man who cleaned out the division and unified the titles, obviously.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:18 PM   #70
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by gooners!! View Post
Its not that i cant see it, its that you wanna bring everything!!! back to that to make your point and that is irrelevant imo, because Tyson and Holyfield fought each other at a stage where they were on a par physically or like id argue Mike was in better shape than Holyfield.


He was getting a right shellacking towards the end of the Bowe fight it was a very tough fight and he ended up face down on the canvas at one point.


Thats because when you discuss Mike its tied in with him being the best HW that ever lived by fans that dismiss all his shortcoming and overrate him, is it any wonder people want to keep a perspective on things when talking about Mike's career.
Well I dont agree that they were on the same par physically. Holyfield was mentally stronger and physically more prepared to fight a tough long fight. Tyson was not landing on Holyfield like Riddick Bowe was in their fight. Riddick Bowe was also a great fighter that although declining himself, was still active and under the guidance of Eddie Futch and still equipped with way better skills than Tyson had at that point.
To me Tyson did have some of the best skills ever, but that doesnt mean he was the greatest fighter. His career is ultimately how he will be judged, and I think he left a lot on the table.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:22 PM   #71
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Gooners though, you cant just say hed been in some tough fights so was clearly further into a decline that tyson

becuase thats not what happened is it? I mean its a theory, and people in 1996 thought it was the case, then they were proved wrong.

He beat tyson, then was beating him again in the rematch and frustrated him into getting disqualified, then had another series of title fights for years afterward
Whether i think Holyfield was further gone or not he definitely did not have more left than Mike, when they fought.

His record after the Tyson fight is reflective of how past his prime he was because he should of lost to Lewis twice and should never have beaten Ruiz the first 1st time, Ruiz clearly won the fight, Holyfield got dropped in the 2nd fight and then not long after the draw with Ruiz he was getting a Boxing lesson from Byrd, Toney, Donald.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:26 PM   #72
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

Evander Holyfield was 34 years old and Mike Tyson was 30 when they fought. Evander won both fights in convincing fashion. I would say that pretty much seals the deal.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:33 PM   #73
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by gooners!! View Post
Wether i think Holyfield was further gone or not he definitely did not have more left than Mike, when they fought.

His record after the Tyson fight is reflective of how past his prime he was because he should of lost to Lewis twice and should never have beaten Ruiz the first 1st time, Ruiz clearly won the fight, Holyfield got dropped in the 2nd fight and then not long after the draw with Ruiz he was getting a Boxing lesson from Byrd, Toney, Donald.
Yeah but that was way after. Holyfield looked spectacular against Moorer and still fought competitively with Lewis. Holyfield was definitely past his best, but he showed more inconsistency. He would look good and then look bad. Also Holyfields style changed as well. He wasnt the same on his toes boxer that he was in the early 90's, a style that I think would have worked better against Lewis.
To me Tyson looked horrible against Mathis, he was missing like crazy and Mathis was nailing him off of counters, and super sloppy against Bruno although the finish was pretty impressive. The only thing Tyson kept after prison was his speed and power, and thats what bailed him out of most of his fights. His timing was terrible and his footwork was all mixed up. Frans Botha was able to outbox him for crying out loud.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:46 PM   #74
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Yeah but that was way after. Holyfield looked spectacular against Moorer and still fought competitively with Lewis. Holyfield was definitely past his best, but he showed more inconsistency. He would look good and then look bad. Also Holyfields style changed as well. He wasnt the same on his toes boxer that he was in the early 90's, a style that I think would have worked better against Lewis.
To me Tyson looked horrible against Mathis, he was missing like crazy and Mathis was nailing him off of counters, and super sloppy against Bruno although the finish was pretty impressive. The only thing Tyson kept after prison was his speed and power, and thats what bailed him out of most of his fights. His timing was terrible and his footwork was all mixed up. Frans Botha was able to outbox him for crying out loud.

99 when he fought Lewis, he should of lost both fights then lost both his fights with Ruiz or should of at least.

Moorer who was having a tough time with Botha!!! and had been knocked out by an ancient Foreman.

Can i get a gauge on what your actually saying here, just so i know.

Holyfield at aged 34 after being in all those wars and looking terrible against Bowe, Moorer had more left in the tank that Mike who had been to prison and not been involved no where near the kind of wars Holyfield has been in, that about right? i just want to clarify that, that is your opinion, please can you give me a straight answer though instead of going around the houses.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:01 PM   #75
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

Simply Tyson was no longer a fighter both mentally and physically equipped to be successful on the championship level.

Let me give you another example. Do you think the Tyson that fought Evander Holyfield would have been able to compete with Razor Ruddock like he did in 90? Tyson was declined in those fights, but still able to fight a fight much more grueling than the Holyfield fight.
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