Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter? - Page 4

frankenfrank · 09-23-2009, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

What makes you so confident. Marvin Hart, an average champion, beat Jack Johnson by swarming all over him with effective aggresion. Was Marvin Hart better than Rocky Marciano?

i think it gives the answer , doesn't it ?

mcvey · 09-23-2009, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Burns had a Jaundice. KSmith and other historians at the Cyber boxing zone know the deal. Check for youself.

Burns in fact asked HD Mcintosh to postpone the fight so he could recover, but HD said the tickets were all sold and he either fights or does not get paid. So Burns, who was ill and at a low weight of 168 pounds entered the ring.

I have checked, TODAY.

From Tracy Callis,Burns was rumoured to be suffering the after effects of INFLUENZA,his source Larry Roberts historian.
Wikipeadia also carries this.
Burns was168 lbs for the fight with Johnson.
According to Dan Cuoco Director of the IBRO, Burns best weight was 174 lbs, considering his height, that would be about right imo.So not a huge weight difference.

mcvey · 09-23-2009, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grebfan9

Hi Mendoza,

As usual you are a wealth of boxing knowledge. I am a Joe Jeanette
fan. Could you let me know where I could get a copy of the Johnson-
Jeanette DQ fight writeup. I didn't know that Jeanette had hurt Johnson
in the 1st round. Thats very interesting.

Years later, Johnson steered clear of Jeanette and refused to give Jeanette a title fight. Of the three top heavyweight contenders back then - Jeanette, McVey and Langford, I feel that Jeanette had the right STYLE OF FIGHTING to potentially whip Johnson. Not saying that Jeanette was a better fighter than McVey or Langford - but styles make fights.

Grebfan9

Jack and Joe in an exhibition for War Bonds.[Jack still on top]

mcvey · 09-23-2009, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoxingGlove1

Well??????????????????

Could Johnson cut up Rocky like this ?

Ezzard · 09-23-2009, 06:59 AM

I'd pick Johnson.

A fight would be interesting though. Tying up a guy with such powerful short arms would not be easy.

Two great fighters but I think Johnson would prevail.

09-23-2009, 07:48 AM

Jack Johnson all the way. RM fighting old wasted men, ducking real contenders.

JimmyShimmy · 09-23-2009, 08:03 AM

Johnson obviously because he's the bomb.

fists of fury · 09-23-2009, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KTFO

RM fighting old wasted men, ducking real contenders.

Like who?

Fighting Weight · 09-23-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Fighting Weight,

Hadvn't you heard? Vitali didn't Quit. He "Retired" to due a life threatening injury that could have KILLED him. If Vitali had gone out for the 10th round, his arm would have had to be amputated!! Vitali should be undefeated. Lennox Lewis long dreds caused Vitali to cut up.

Well VITLAY losing an arm would be life threatening, I suspect WALDO would kill him if he reduced his reach-around options by 50%.

You forgot to mention Lewis's illegal beard too by the way, that was a pivotal factor in the fight, apparently. I think someone should start a poll to predict what the excuses will be if VITLAY loses again this weekend, I see Mendoza has already come up with the obvious one but I like to think that the Klit-ites aren't so past their prime that they can't come up with something more inventive than "he got old", that's nowhere near outrageous enough for my liking.

RockyJim · 09-23-2009, 10:20 AM

I'll take Marciano....Johnson couldn't hurt The Rock...and he's got nothing to keep Marciano at bay.....Rocky was a force of nature..always in great shape.....I see him swarming all over Johnson in this one!!!

mcvey · 09-23-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyJim

I'll take Marciano....Johnson couldn't hurt The Rock...and he's got nothing to keep Marciano at bay.....Rocky was a force of nature..always in great shape.....I see him swarming all over Johnson in this one!!!

I havent made a pick ,but I wonder how effective Johnson's uppercuts might be on a crouching Rocky?

MrMarvel · 09-23-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

What makes you so confident. Marvin Hart, an average champion, beat Jack Johnson by swarming all over him with effective aggresion. Was Marvin Hart better than Rocky Marciano?

Hart's face was battered to a pulp. The referee awarded him the fight because he forced the action. The crowd was wild for Hart. No doubt, if one understands Johnson's style, his defensive cleverness (which newspaper accounts note) didn't impress the referee, even though Hart came out of the fight the much worse for wear. I haven't seen the fight and don't know if film exists, so I am speculating, but it's hard to imagine that Johnson was treated fairly in the scoring for this fight. Hart beats Johnson with effective aggression yet Burns, Hart's conquerer can hardly deal with Johnson at all? Kudos to Hart for lasting the distance. There is a period where he seems to have been a tough nut to crack. Of course Hart wasn't greater than Marciano. The question is whether Marciano was greater than Johnson, and I can't make the case that he was. I don't think you have made the case, either.

Bummy Davis · 09-23-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

For me this is the bottomline.

I can forgive Johnson missing a challenger or so, but he missed 4 well deserving contenders in Langford, Mcvey, Jeannette and Gunboat Smith. Sorry, beating them when they are teenagers/super welterweights doesn't amount to much. Lewis beating Bowe in the amateurs doesn't mean he beat a prime Bowe, either.

I feel pretty much the same but I will add head to head I do not think he could handle Rocky's pressure or power and the pace and I think Rocky stops him Late

Seamus · 09-23-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMarvel

so I am speculating

Unfortunately, this is heart of most arguments for Johnson's greatness...

I prefer the following facts...

Limited and otherwise average Hart did enough to beat him.

Little Choynkski knocked him cold.

Little, pitty-patter O'Brien fought him to a draw (whilst Ketchell and Langford KTFO of O'Brien)

Jim Johnson fought him to a draw and depending on your source might have deserved a knock out.

Tiny, booze-soaked Ketchell caught the defensive master with a haymaker and downed him.

Claims of his greatness often refer to his beating Jeanette. How many fighters in the last 100 years get credit for beating an absolute novice over and over, essentially as record padding?

and more, and more...

There are enough red flags to warrant heavy skepticism regarding the lofty heights to which Johnson enthusiasts have vaulted him.

TheGreatA · 09-23-2009, 02:59 PM

Didn't Tommy Burns weigh 168 pounds that same year in his title defense against Jem Roche?

09-23-2009, 06:59 AM	#50
Ezzard Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,037 vCash: 1000	Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter? I'd pick Johnson. A fight would be interesting though. Tying up a guy with such powerful short arms would not be easy. Two great fighters but I think Johnson would prevail.
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09-23-2009, 07:48 AM	#51
KTFO Guest Posts: n/a vCash:	Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter? Jack Johnson all the way. RM fighting old wasted men, ducking real contenders.
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09-23-2009, 08:03 AM	#52
JimmyShimmy 1050 psi ESB Full Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: 167lbs - P4P Baddest Posts: 352 vCash: 1000	Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter? Johnson obviously because he's the bomb.
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09-23-2009, 10:20 AM	#55
RockyJim Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,268 vCash: 1000	Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter? I'll take Marciano....Johnson couldn't hurt The Rock...and he's got nothing to keep Marciano at bay.....Rocky was a force of nature..always in great shape.....I see him swarming all over Johnson in this one!!!
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09-23-2009, 02:59 PM	#60
TheGreatA Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 7,116 vCash: 1000	Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter? Didn't Tommy Burns weigh 168 pounds that same year in his title defense against Jem Roche?
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