Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

[TheGreatA]

Green as he may have been, Jeannette had still TKO'd Sam Langford previous to fighting Jack Johnson.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

Didn't Tommy Burns weigh 168 pounds that same year in his title defense against Jem Roche?

Ye he did ,he must have had another jaundice attack

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

Green as he may have been, Jeannette had still TKO'd Sam Langford previous to fighting Jack Johnson.

Yes, a Langford who had had 46 fights.
How inconvenient of you to mention that , along with Great A , who mentioned that Burns weighed exactly the same 168lbs in an earlier defence of his title against Jem Roche whom he bombed out in one round. Wonder if he had jaundice then too?

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Unfortunately, this is heart of most arguments for Johnson's greatness...

I prefer the following facts...

Limited and otherwise average Hart did enough to beat him.

Little Choynkski knocked him cold.

Little, pitty-patter O'Brien fought him to a draw (whilst Ketchell and Langford KTFO of O'Brien)

Jim Johnson fought him to a draw and depending on your source might have deserved a knock out.

Tiny, booze-soaked Ketchell caught the defensive master with a haymaker and downed him.

Claims of his greatness often refer to his beating Jeanette. How many fighters in the last 100 years get credit for beating an absolute novice over and over, essentially as record padding?

and more, and more...

There are enough red flags to warrant heavy skepticism regarding the lofty heights to which Johnson enthusiasts have vaulted him.

Your posts are provocative which is good ,we dont agree on Johnson ,but that's fine.How you interpret his career is up to you.
I dont think being kod by Choynsky was a disgrace,Johnson was in his 8th fight and Choynsky kod 34 of his 51 victims.
Johnson broke his arm against Jim Johnson.
Ketchel was in good shape for Johnson he weighed 170lbs more than Fitz did in most of his fights.

[guilalah]

McVey #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by guilalah
I'm currently reading Clay Moyle's 'Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion'. One thing that seems notable in Sam's set to with Johnson was the disparity of strength between the two at that time. There were occaisions when Sam hurt Johnson, but he couldn't follow through because Johnson would tie him up; where as, when Johnson hurt Langford, Sam couldn't tie Johnson up and was compelled to fight through the bad moments.

I tend to rate Marciano a little over Johnson, but I can't claim to have any convincing arguments that I'm right.

A. D. Philips Nat Fleischers father in law saw the Johnson ,Langford fight and stated that JOHNSON FLOORED LANGFORD A COUPLE OF TIMES ,BROKE HIS NOSE AND CUT HIS EYE,AND WAS NEVER IN ANY DANGER,of course Langford was only 156 lbs to Johnsons 185lbs, no doubt in later years the fight would have been much more competitive.

I'd like to be careful, here, that I don't make Moyle doesn't come across as a Langford fan-boy.
It is very clear, in Moyle's book, that Langford took a beatdown from Johnson in a one-sided contest. Moyle does assert that Sam occaisionally landed effective punches and that both were tired at the fights end; but he certainly admits that Langford received far more facial damage and did not land anywhere near as many punches as Johnson; and Moyle never asserts that Johnson was in any immenent danger of being stopped, just that he was shook on a few occaisions, but tied Sam up before it could develope into anything really problematic.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by guilalah

I'd like to be careful, here, that I don't make Moyle doesn't come across as a Langford fan-boy.
It is very clear, in Moyle's book, that Langford took a beatdown from Johnson in a one-sided contest. Moyle does assert that Sam occaisionally landed effective punches and that both were tired at the fights end; but he certainly admits that Langford received far more facial damage and did not land anywhere near as many punches as Johnson; and Moyle never asserts that Johnson was in any immenent danger of being stopped, just that he was shook on a few occaisions, but tied Sam up before it could develope into anything really problematic.

Thanks for the info.both Johnson at 185lbs and Langford at 156lbs were short of their respective peaks. Johnson had 38 fights up to then and Langford 50. Prime for prime it would have been one to watch, though I favour Johnson , by dec

[MrMarvel]

Johnson was 4-1-2. Choynski was a veteran of more than 60 fights. It was a mismatch in terms of skill. Choynski did not knock Johnson cold. Johnson did not beat the count, but he was not out cold. And the knock out itself was a bit suspicious.

Had the O'Brien-Ketchel contest you mention been six rounds, O'Brien would have been entitled to a clear victory, as he dominated Ketchel through the first eight rounds. Had O'Brien-Johnson been 10 rounds, how then would O'Brien have done? Johnson, clearly out of shape and uninspired, reached him a few times and once had him reeling. Was it only a matter of time? Likely. Don't dismiss O'Brien so easily. He was a tricky boxer.

Since Ketchel and Johnson had agreed to a decision finish, Johnson was not expecting Ketchel to let go like that. And when Ketchel changed the terms of the deal, Johnson ended it right then and there - which it looked like he could have done anytime he decided to.

We have enough film to judge Johnson's abilities. Your argument is not compelling in the least.

Originally Posted by Seamus

Unfortunately, this is heart of most arguments for Johnson's greatness...

I prefer the following facts...

Limited and otherwise average Hart did enough to beat him.

Little Choynkski knocked him cold.

Little, pitty-patter O'Brien fought him to a draw (whilst Ketchell and Langford KTFO of O'Brien)

Jim Johnson fought him to a draw and depending on your source might have deserved a knock out.

Tiny, booze-soaked Ketchell caught the defensive master with a haymaker and downed him.

Claims of his greatness often refer to his beating Jeanette. How many fighters in the last 100 years get credit for beating an absolute novice over and over, essentially as record padding?

and more, and more...

There are enough red flags to warrant heavy skepticism regarding the lofty heights to which Johnson enthusiasts have vaulted him.

[Mendoza]

MrMarvel says: Johnson was 4-1-2. Choynski was a veteran of more than 60 fights. It was a mismatch in terms of skill. Choynski did not knock Johnson cold. Johnson did not beat the count, but he was not out cold. And the knock out itself was a bit suspicious.

This is not correct. Johnson had over 20 fights before he meet Choynski! Here is his record going into the fight:
1894 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 16 -Some sources report "KO 15"Undated (circa 1894-95)
Dave Pierson Galveston, Tx W 1895Apr 11
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Galveston, Tx L 4 -Some sources report 1899 1896 Cherokee

Kansas City, Ks KO Howard Pollar Galveston, Tx W

1897 Jim Rocks Galveston, Tx KO 4 Sam Smith Galveston, Tx W 10

1898 Reddy Bremer Galveston, Tx KO 3
Jim Cole Galveston, Tx W 4
Henry Smith Galveston, Tx D 15

1899Feb 11 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx D 7

Mar 17 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx WF 7May 6

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Chicago, Il LT

4Dec 16 Pat Smith Galveston, Tx D 12

1900Mar 7 John Lee Galveston, Tx W

15Mar 20 Willie McNeal Galveston, Tx KO 15

Apr 6 Bob White Galveston, Tx W 15

Apr 12 Charley Brooks Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 1 Jim Scanlan Galveston, Tx KO 7

May 6 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 28 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 7

Jun 12 Horace Miles Galveston, Tx KO 3

Jun 25 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Galveston, Tx D 20 -Some sources report 6/28/00

Oct George Lawler Galveston, Tx KO

10Nov Josh Mills Memphis, Tn W 12

Dec 27 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Memphis, Tn TK 14 -Some sources report 12/28/00

1901Feb 25 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Galveston, Tx LK 3 -Both fighters were arrested after the fightMar 22 –Johnson and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] were released from jail after each posted a $1,000 bondApr


26 Billy Stift Denver, Co D 10

Nov 4 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Bakersfield, Ca L 20

Dec 27 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Oakland, Ca D 20

Had the O'Brien-Ketchel contest you mention been six rounds, O'Brien would have been entitled to a clear victory, as he dominated Ketchel through the first eight rounds. Had O'Brien-Johnson been 10 rounds, how then would O'Brien have done? Johnson, clearly out of shape and uninspired, reached him a few times and once had him reeling. Was it only a matter of time? Likely. Don't dismiss O'Brien so easily. He was a tricky boxer.

True. A past his best supper middle weight out boxed and out jabbed Johnson. Since Johnson claims he wasn't in shape, O'briend coudl have out worked him in the later rounds if was scheduled for 10, or perhaps have been TKO'd. Either way, its very interesting to see what a skilled guy did vs. Johnson. Johnson's vaunted defense and glove blocking didn't help him at all here.

We have enough film to judge Johnson's abilities. Your argument is not compelling in the least.

I agree that we have enough flim and news reads to judge him.

[McGrain]

The point is - Johnson was inexperienced, Choynski was very experienced, and also happened to be perhaps the hardest puncher that had ever thrown a punch in anger up until that point. Jeffries and Corbett seem to agree upon his being the hardest hitter they had ever faced, certainly.

[elTerrible]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

In terms of toughness, intangibles and the wiliness to fight, its Marciano via landslide. The amateur fight means little. Sources vary. Some say Rocky kicked his opponent in the stomach.

I dont think that is much better

[MrMarvel]

Originally Posted by McGrain

The point is - Johnson was inexperienced, Choynski was very experienced, and also happened to be perhaps the hardest puncher that had ever thrown a punch in anger up until that point. Jeffries and Corbett seem to agree upon his being the hardest hitter they had ever faced, certainly.

Jeffries said he had never faced a harder puncher.

Jeffries also said, about Johnson, "He's better than I ever was."

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by MrMarvel

Jeffries said he had never faced a harder puncher.

Jeffries also said, about Johnson, "He's better than I ever was."

You won't get any change from Mendoza with that remark !

[MrMarvel]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

True. A past his best supper middle weight out boxed and out jabbed Johnson. Since Johnson claims he wasn't in shape, O'briend coudl have out worked him in the later rounds if was scheduled for 10, or perhaps have been TKO'd. Either way, its very interesting to see what a skilled guy did vs. Johnson. Johnson's vaunted defense and glove blocking didn't help him at all here.

O'Brien is only credited with winning two rounds of the contest. Two rounds went to Johnson and the other two were even.

You just sank your argument!

[Ste Hawkins]

The Galveston Giant. He's a true ATG and he's only dissed by young and ignorant fans who don't appreciate the old school and think modern means "fitter/stronger/harder"!!

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Ste Hawkins

The Galveston Giant. He's a true ATG and he's only dissed by young and ignorant fans who don't appreciate the old school and think modern means "fitter/stronger/harder"!!

And a bigot on this forum who has a hate fixation with him.