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Old 09-27-2009, 04:01 PM   #76
My2Sense
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
The list isnt great but of all the things to pick out in that list, you pick Willie Pep at no3 ?

Mesmerising.
Not really, there's more that two fighters in history that deserve to be rated over him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
The majority have Pep as the no1 FWT of all time.
No they don't. Plenty of people have always rated Saddler there or at least tied with Pep for that spot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post

Ali aint unanimous as the no1 HWT
Charles aint unanimous as the no1 LHWT
Duran aint unanimous as the no1 LWT
Charles and Duran have credentials far outside of just being the possible best in a particular weight class.

If Pep isn't the #1 FW of all time, then what is the case for making him the #3 P4P fighter ever?

Last edited by My2Sense; 09-27-2009 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 09-27-2009, 06:23 PM   #77
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

top 8 is great then it loses the plot
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:51 PM   #78
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
The Snell loss can pretty much be coughed up to "shit happens"
In his book 'Mean Business' Stephen Brunt writes a number of pages on McLarnin and he also described how McLarnin supposedly "battled jaundice that forced six and four month layoffs" (page 158 ) This is described as happening not too long after the fight with Jackie Fields, so if you can look at Jimmy's record and find any significant time being taken off by him between fights, you might have the reason. I would guess that it would fall close to the Snell and Farr fights.

Also, the L.A. Times on Oct 10th, 1926 describe how McLarnin was recovering from what the paper called a "severe cold" which put the fight with Snell back a little with a delay.

i.e. McLarnin may not have been at his healthy best for the Snell fight.
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Old 09-28-2009, 05:44 PM   #79
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

If I had to choose fighters to win any style of hand to hand combat competition with or without gloves I would pick these 13 men for skill, fearlessness, athleticism, reflexes, killer instinct and heart.

FIGHTERS

Fedor Emelianenko
Bruce Lee
Rickson Gracie
Chuck Norris
Joe Lewis
Mike Tyson
Jack Dempsey
Royce Gracie
James Jefferies
Harry Greb
Anderson Silva
Rocky Marciano
Roberto Duran
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:05 PM   #80
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

I do not like the omission of Michael Spinks.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:24 PM   #81
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

I think I wonder who made that list for him.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:34 PM   #82
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

There seems to have been no thought process at all, there is absolutely no excuse for someone who calls themselves a boxing historian to have Jack Dempsey anywhere near the top ten, a lot of people (not me) dont even have him in the top ten heavyweights. You could say he is more in favour of old fighters but then why is Chavez so high and Fitzsimmons so low? The list might as well be called Bert Sugar's Famous Boxers Names I've Pulled From a Hat.
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:21 PM   #83
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

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Originally Posted by cotto20 View Post
Give me your thougts on this list and what stands out to you as for fighters being to high or low, or fighters that never got included

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake Lamotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Sadler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernelll Whittaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo lLopez
54. John L Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitzimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. George Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson
Blue too low
Red too high
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:50 PM   #84
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
Not really, there's more that two fighters in history that deserve to be rated over him.




No they don't. Plenty of people have always rated Saddler there or at least tied with Pep for that spot.




Charles and Duran have credentials far outside of just being the possible best in a particular weight class.

If Pep isn't the #1 FW of all time, then what is the case for making him the #3 P4P fighter ever?
Tracy callis and cox's corner rate Armstrong as the #1 FW, does he fit in at all??? Although he was ahead of Pep in Sugars list as well
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Old 06-04-2012, 04:56 PM   #85
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

bump
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Old 06-04-2012, 05:51 PM   #86
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cotto20 View Post
Give me your thougts on this list and what stands out to you as for fighters being to high or low, or fighters that never got included

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson
the original book came out around 1985 and had great huge pics and was a hardback and better. The list was different too. Greb was 3, Pep 12, Duran 17, Leonard 56, Dempsey 5 beautiful better book all around. loads of big 12 by 8 pics and more fum.
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:28 AM   #87
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

Enough chunks can't be blown to fully express how nauseous this makes me.
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:35 AM   #88
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

a lot of old and dusty fighters in bert's list. big surprise!
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