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Old 10-21-2009, 02:01 PM   #31
MrMarvel
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

The problem is Frazier's slow starting, vulnerable chin, and Tyson's quick starts, speed, and power. Tyson would stop Frazier early.
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Old 10-21-2009, 02:02 PM   #32
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

Fat chance. Frazier would last no more than 2 rounds with tyson. He'd be right in range of tysons punches, having no place to go and not being able to consistently elude tysons punches. He'd duck right into them instead and double their already murderous impact. Terrible match-up for "smokin Joe".
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:22 PM   #33
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Oscar Bonavena ( down twice in the 2nd round ) Frazier got back up to win a 10 round decision.

Manuel Ramos stood 6' 3" and weighed 230 pounds and had a pulverizing right uppercut that Frazier walked through on his way to scoring a 2nd Round knockout.

Frazier stood up to the hardest punches Quarry ever landed and kept coming forward and wearing Quarry down. Joe repeated his performance more thoroughly five years later when they met a second time.

Ali hit Frazier with some of the swiftest combinations and hardest punches he ever hit any opponent with and did not knock him down. The only time Frazier was stopped by Ali was in the Manila fight. His eye was completely swollen shut and he was getting hit with punches he could not see.

Over the years many people have tryed to diminish Frazier's accomplishments because of the way he lost to Foreman. Foreman is not just another puncher. He came back and won the title at age 45 with a one-punch knockout.
Frazier get's disrespcted on this forum in potential matchups against big punchers because of exactly what happened in Jamaica against Foreman.

I believe Mike Tyson wouldn't have the easy fight many on this forum and in this thread have predicted against the Frazier of 1967-FOTC. Sure, Joe has been known to be vulnerable in his career in the early rounds, but we're not talking about the overweight, overconfident, out-of-shape version that lost his title to Foreman. If that version of Frazier is to be used in this discussion, then the real question in this thread should reflect whether Mike Tyson KOs the Frazier that George Foreman KO'd quicker than the two rounds in 1973.

Mike Tyson wouldn't hold up to the body attack, pressure and pace that a prime late 1960's Frazier would put on him. Tyson is more than capable of knocking down the prime version of Frazier once or twice early in the fight, but Joe would keep getting up and eventually stop Tyson inside round 10. Tyson doesn't have the immediate height and reach advantage that Foreman had, keeping Joe on the outside. In fact, Frazier is a little bit taller than Tyson and there's no comparison when it comes to overall stamina.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:49 PM   #34
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

I would favor Tyson. But I think Joe has a good chance in this fight. Many people emphasize Tyson's problems with tall boxers, but I think shorter fighters may have been better picks against Tyson. When Tyson beats a tall boxer, it's usually because he's able to slip the jab so effectively and then bang to the body. But when he's got a shorter fighter, whose a smaller target, pressuring him, I think that fighter might be able to neutralize him. Tyson has short arms, but he needs room to really work his hands for power shots. I think if Joe pressured him and pushed him back while throwing shorter punches than Tyson, he might be able to really confuse Mike.

But, I would still bet on Tyson in this matchup.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:36 PM   #35
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Fat chance. Frazier would last no more than 2 rounds with tyson. He'd be right in range of tysons punches, having no place to go and not being able to consistently elude tysons punches. He'd duck right into them instead and double their already murderous impact. Terrible match-up for "smokin Joe".
I'd bet on the Frazier who got knocked out by George Foreman in 1973 to last 3, maybe 4 rounds before Tyson knocks him out. Tyson doesn't KO 1973 Frazier inside two rounds like Foreman did.

Prime Joe Frazier, 1967 up to the FOTC, KO's Tyson before the bell sounds for round 8. Tyson would fall from the result of prime Frazier's pressure and body attack.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:49 PM   #36
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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the only one that springs to mind for me is the first bonavena fight .i think frazier went down a few times in one of the early rounds .but i may be wrong
Bonavena knocked Frazier down twice ,but Oscar was not a top league banger imo.Frazier only met one.

Last edited by mcvey; 10-22-2009 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:03 PM   #37
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Originally Posted by sugarsean View Post
Oscar Bonavena ( down twice in the 2nd round ) Frazier got back up to win a 10 round decision.

Manuel Ramos stood 6' 3" and weighed 230 pounds and had a pulverizing right uppercut that Frazier walked through on his way to scoring a 2nd Round knockout.

Frazier stood up to the hardest punches Quarry ever landed and kept coming forward and wearing Quarry down. Joe repeated his performance more thoroughly five years later when they met a second time.

Ali hit Frazier with some of the swiftest combinations and hardest punches he ever hit any opponent with and did not knock him down. The only time Frazier was stopped by Ali was in the Manila fight. His eye was completely swollen shut and he was getting hit with punches he could not see.

Over the years many people have tryed to diminish Frazier's accomplishments because of the way he lost to Foreman. Foreman is not just another puncher. He came back and won the title at age 45 with a one-punch knockout.
I'm sorry but this is rubbish,Quarry was not a top league puncher Floyd Patterson attested to that.

Bonavena was a clubbing puncher ,again not top league Frazier only met ONE top puncher ,and in two fights he lasted less than 7 rounds.

Manuel Ramos? He was an over hyped second rater, his best win was a decision over an on the slide Terrell, who had lost his last two fights..

Ramos NEVER kod a rated heavyweight he scaled 208lbs to Frazier's 203 1/2lbs.

Ramos was kod by Bonavena in 1 round by Chuvalo in 5rds,and ended with a 25wins 29 losses record,having been stopped 9 times ,he quit against Frazier
.He was on a par with the two disgraceful defences Frazier made against Stander[who Ramos drew with and lost to] ,and Daniels.Both unranked .Ramos drew with perrenial sparring partner George Scrap Iron Johnson,I am kind calling him a second rater.
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:16 AM   #38
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

COULD he? Of course! Would he likely do it? I wouldn't bet either way. BUT I give Frazier one real, certainly significant edge here, which is mentality. Frazier simply could not be bullied or frustrated and disheartened the way Tyson could. Frazier would have done everything he could as long as his body would allow and Tyson never would've backed him off or scared him. I can't say the same for even prime Tyson if he were faced with a man as vicious and relentless as Joe Frazier. I give Tyson pretty much any physical advantages. More strength, more speed, devastating with both hands-unlike Joe who was almost all left-, better reflexes even. Actually the only physical thing I think Frazier would have over Tyson is stamina. 15-round, trying to kill you in every round-style stamina. But the slow starter+straight forward method that so many people mention to be typical of Frazier very well might negate the edge I give him in stamina and psychology. I'd favor Tyson, but yes, I think Frazier COULD do it.
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Old 10-22-2009, 10:25 AM   #39
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

I give Frazier a fair shot, The Foreman fight was a less than prime Frazier with a swolen head and new found fame from the Ali fight. Frazier was starting to believe he was unbeatable. Fighting Foreman he met a puncher that would go head to head with him but could get to hit quicker. Frazier was not a strait down the pike puncher he was a hook guy and even though he throw then fast and in bunches, It was only ONE ARM and easily telegraghed...Foreman was there to be hit but with the one hand he was hard to beat and Foreman could hit Joe with no fear of a counter. It was the right hand that put Foreman down and hurt him in several fights_LYLE, ALI,YOUNG and Peralta was also effective with it. Tyson is a different type of fighter. I see Mike starting out fast and this is something Frazier would have to be aware of. Joe would have to give Mike and lot of upper body movement but he MUST let Tyson feel his power early. Tyson had the better chin but Frazier had the late power and Heart...Remember Joe still got up 6 times vs Foreman and he was not prime. Joe also dominated Bonavena and beat Quarry at his game and Foreman did NOT fight these 2 MEN. I could see Tyson KOing Frazier but I could also see Joe wearing Tyson down getting inside and slipping and bobbing and making a war out of it. If Frazier makes Mike feel his power may make Mike reluctant to Wild abandonment of defense and you could find a tired and hurt Tyson by the end of the 9th losing by a tko. Tyson was great, Frazier was great...we can not judge these men by one fight.....This is a superfight.
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:02 AM   #40
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
COULD he? Of course! Would he likely do it? I wouldn't bet either way. BUT I give Frazier one real, certainly significant edge here, which is mentality. Frazier simply could not be bullied or frustrated and disheartened the way Tyson could. Frazier would have done everything he could as long as his body would allow and Tyson never would've backed him off or scared him. I can't say the same for even prime Tyson if he were faced with a man as vicious and relentless as Joe Frazier. I give Tyson pretty much any physical advantages. More strength, more speed, devastating with both hands-unlike Joe who was almost all left-, better reflexes even. Actually the only physical thing I think Frazier would have over Tyson is stamina. 15-round, trying to kill you in every round-style stamina. But the slow starter+straight forward method that so many people mention to be typical of Frazier very well might negate the edge I give him in stamina and psychology. I'd favor Tyson, but yes, I think Frazier COULD do it.
Good post !
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:38 AM   #41
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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I dont think so. Bruno, Lewis and Ruddock all had more power then Joe and all caught Tyson flush on so I dont think Joe could put Tyson in trouble with one left hook, no matter how good of a hooker Fraizer was.
Bruno, Lewis and Ruddock were at least 20 pounds heavier than Joe in their primes and stronger. However, punch for punch, I think Joe's left hook was a bigger punch than any of the others threw. Joe got more of his body into it than the otheres.
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:57 AM   #42
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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I give Frazier a fair shot, The Foreman fight was a less than prime Frazier with a swolen head and new found fame from the Ali fight. Frazier was starting to believe he was unbeatable. Fighting Foreman he met a puncher that would go head to head with him but could get to hit quicker. Frazier was not a strait down the pike puncher he was a hook guy and even though he throw then fast and in bunches, It was only ONE ARM and easily telegraghed...Foreman was there to be hit but with the one hand he was hard to beat and Foreman could hit Joe with no fear of a counter. It was the right hand that put Foreman down and hurt him in several fights_LYLE, ALI,YOUNG and Peralta was also effective with it. Tyson is a different type of fighter. I see Mike starting out fast and this is something Frazier would have to be aware of. Joe would have to give Mike and lot of upper body movement but he MUST let Tyson feel his power early. Tyson had the better chin but Frazier had the late power and Heart...Remember Joe still got up 6 times vs Foreman and he was not prime. Joe also dominated Bonavena and beat Quarry at his game and Foreman did NOT fight these 2 MEN. I could see Tyson KOing Frazier but I could also see Joe wearing Tyson down getting inside and slipping and bobbing and making a war out of it. If Frazier makes Mike feel his power may make Mike reluctant to Wild abandonment of defense and you could find a tired and hurt Tyson by the end of the 9th losing by a tko. Tyson was great, Frazier was great...we can not judge these men by one fight.....This is a superfight.
The fly in the ointment of your prognosis ,is that Frazier has to be able to take Tyson's bombs for nine rounds before he wears him down,an unlikely occurence imo.
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Old 10-22-2009, 12:04 PM   #43
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

I can't see it. Tyson's power was just below Foreman's and he was far more skilled.
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Old 10-22-2009, 12:40 PM   #44
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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I think Tyson wins this by stoppage inside 7 rds.

He had significantly faster hands ,better two handed power,took a better punch imo, and was bigger ,and stronger.

I dont see any area where Frazier has a substantial advantage,except maybe stamina,and heart ,but as he was a slow starter ,and Tyson came out like Dempsey , these plusses would not be a factor .

If Frazier could somehow survive into the late stages of the fight he has a shot ,but he wouldnt imo.
Frazier had more than his hands full with Bonavena who was a clubbing brawler,Joe couldnt drop him in two fights and Tyson is 3 times the fighter Oscar was.
Frazier wore you down with an accumulation of punches, he only faced one real big banger and got decapitated.
Tyson took the shots from bangers like Ruddock and Bruno,and even when past it, it took a lot of shots to finish him off.
As I've said before, anyone is a slow starter when compared to Ali.

Ali had his hands full with Bonavena for 15 rounds and was lucky to get a stoppage because the ref allowed him to hover over Bonavena, not keeping Ali in the neutral corner.

Tyson would certainly have his hands full with Bonavena too, and I doubt that it would be an easy fight for him. Bonavena's been down like any other fighter, but where in his career has he been blown out?

Regardles of who you think of as the big punchers or not, there's a huge difference like I've said between Joe Frazier 1967-pre FOTC and the Joe Frazier of 1973. People tend to put too much emphasis on Joe's performance against Foreman, and easily conclude that Tyson would beat Frazier the same way based on power, which I don't see. Prime Mike Tyson never moved his head as frequently to avoid punches while setting up his own like prime Joe Frazier did. Frazier was no pushover, was hard to hit , had strong legs and shoulders, and I don't think Tyson would be able to bully him around the ring wrestling style, albeit illegally like Foreman did.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:35 PM   #45
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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As I've said before, anyone is a slow starter when compared to Ali.

Ali had his hands full with Bonavena for 15 rounds and was lucky to get a stoppage because the ref allowed him to hover over Bonavena, not keeping Ali in the neutral corner.

Tyson would certainly have his hands full with Bonavena too, and I doubt that it would be an easy fight for him. Bonavena's been down like any other fighter, but where in his career has he been blown out?

Regardles of who you think of as the big punchers or not, there's a huge difference like I've said between Joe Frazier 1967-pre FOTC and the Joe Frazier of 1973. People tend to put too much emphasis on Joe's performance against Foreman, and easily conclude that Tyson would beat Frazier the same way based on power, which I don't see. Prime Mike Tyson never moved his head as frequently to avoid punches while setting up his own like prime Joe Frazier did. Frazier was no pushover, was hard to hit , had strong legs and shoulders, and I don't think Tyson would be able to bully him around the ring wrestling style, albeit illegally like Foreman did.
"Anyone is a slow starter ,compared to Ali" .When I first saw this statement ,I thought it was a mis print.
Ali scored two 1 round kos he was NOT a fast starter at all.
The Ali who fought Bonavena had 18 rounds of boxing in 4 years under his belt,how about you pick a prime Ali?
Ali was 29 when he came back from exile the same age as Frazier when he fought Foreman.
Tyson would maim Bonavena,he is superior in EVERY department.
Bonavena was dropped by moderate punchers like Ali,Folley and Ellis,Tyson would stiffen him like a board.
Frazier is TOTALLY unproven against big punchers,the ONLTY one he met used him as a yo yo.
Tyson met many big punchers some of whom his considerably harder than Frazier.
Tyson was faster,stronger,more durable,less apt to facial swelling ,had better power ,had two handed power,fought MANY big men who possesed power and stopped them Frazier did NOT.
If you think Frazier was hard to hit you should have a look at the post fight pics of his Ali fights ,he looks like he has stuck his head into a bees nest.
Ali is on record as stating Frazier was elatively easy to hit.
You are a big Frazier fan ,and thats fine, but it has coloured your objectivity.
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