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Old 11-03-2009, 12:50 PM   #1
GPater11093
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Default The Murderers Row - Explain their style

i know some of you gusy really know about this period.

Ive been reading lan Rpsenfelds book on Burley (a real boxing geeks book and i love it)

and i cant fathom Burleys style. He appears to have been a sharp shooting, boxing puncher early in his career. He then goes into a more boxer-puncher but with bobbing and weaving then he went into a boxer who jumped in with hard shots. Anyone shed any light.

also can people help me with the styles of

Cocoa Kid
Holman Williams
Llyod Marshall
Jack Chase
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:13 PM   #2
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

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and i cant fathom Burleys style. He appears to have been a sharp shooting, boxing puncher early in his career. He then goes into a more boxer-puncher but with bobbing and weaving then he went into a boxer who jumped in with hard shots.
Oh, Greg.
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

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Oh, Greg.
whats wrong with that? You know what i mean it slightly changes through time but they are all quite odd styles.
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Old 11-03-2009, 02:40 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

Do we have 1 or 2 fights of Burleys? You can only honestly assess what you've seen. We have none of the rest. From what I've seen Burley was a great judge of distance, rolled his weight from 1 foot to another to set traps or make feints and lean back and counter, his footwork I find similar to Floyd Mayweathers, very much a radar type fighter looking to slip shots, a side on boxer that likes to slip back and counter his right over the jab, great use of angles, also seems to potshot allot. Similar to FMJ except Burley actually knows how to throw a proper punch, this could be partly because hes a smaller man fighting a LHW too.

Archie Moore was a Burley fan and he based his style on Burley's a bit imo using some of his moves.
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Old 11-03-2009, 03:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

I can't think of anybody since Burley who I would compare his style to.

He is a "what if technical boxing had taken a diferent path back in the 1920s"
type of proposition.
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Old 11-03-2009, 03:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

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whats wrong with that? You know what i mean it slightly changes through time but they are all quite odd styles.
It was your description of his styles that tickled me, not your stance on his evolution as a fighter.
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Old 11-03-2009, 03:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

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Do we have 1 or 2 fights of Burleys? You can only honestly assess what you've seen. We have none of the rest. From what I've seen Burley was a great judge of distance, rolled his weight from 1 foot to another to set traps or make feints and lean back and counter, his footwork I find similar to Floyd Mayweathers, very much a radar type fighter looking to slip shots, a side on boxer that likes to slip back and counter his right over the jab, great use of angles, also seems to potshot allot. Similar to FMJ except Burley actually knows how to throw a proper punch, this could be partly because hes a smaller man fighting a LHW too.

Archie Moore was a Burley fan and he based his style on Burley's a bit imo using some of his moves.
There's film of Lloyd Marshall. I've heard comparisons with Archie Moore although I'm not sure if they're 100% accurate.
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:35 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

How come oakland billy smith never gets a mention he beat harold johnson, jack chase, lloyd marshall and got a draw with archie moore, he never got a title shot, does he even get a mention in the book your reading gp pater?
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:45 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

It seems many of the "murderer's row" had quite unorthodox styles. Burley, Moore - Marshall if he was similar to Moore - and also Walcott, who could be said to have spent a large part of his career on "murderer's row" before he got his shot. Like Moore did.

That could well be because they probably wasn't that well managed and trained in their formative years, and therefore in large part adopted very personal styles. But some of their moves seems to have been incorporated in the text book to a degree later on. For example Moore's upper body movement and cross armed guard.

Were these guys the first slick, unorthodox technicians, perhaps? How important have they've been for the evolution of boxing? Who are their heirs today? Toney, Hopkins?
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

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It seems many of the "murderer's row" had quite unorthodox styles. Burley, Moore - Marshall if he was similar to Moore - and also Walcott, who could be said to have spent a large part of his career on "murderer's row" before he got his shot. Like Moore did.

That could well be because they probably wasn't that well managed and trained in their formative years, and therefore in large part adopted very personal styles. But some of their moves seems to have been incorporated in the text book to a degree later on. For example Moore's upper body movement and cross armed guard.

Were these guys the first slick, unorthodox technicians, perhaps? How important have they've been for the evolution of boxing? Who are their heirs today? Toney, Hopkins?
Hopkins and Toney both name Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott as inspirations so I guess they could be considered the "heirs" of these fighters.

Charley Burley's former sparring parner A.J. Nelson said Roy Jones reminded him of Burley.
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Old 11-03-2009, 05:20 PM   #11
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Hopkins and Toney both name Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott as inspirations so I guess they could be considered the "heirs" of these fighters.

Charley Burley's former sparring parner A.J. Nelson said Roy Jones reminded him of Burley.
Interesting. Thanks.
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Old 11-03-2009, 05:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

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Charley Burley's former sparring parner A.J. Nelson said Roy Jones reminded him of Burley.
That's who I would compare him to.

Maybe Marshall could be compared to Wilfredo Gomez?
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Old 11-03-2009, 05:53 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
It was your description of his styles that tickled me, not your stance on his evolution as a fighter.
just say stuff how i see it



Quote:
Originally Posted by St_Boxing_J12 View Post
How come oakland billy smith never gets a mention he beat harold johnson, jack chase, lloyd marshall and got a draw with archie moore, he never got a title shot, does he even get a mention in the book your reading gp pater?
because theres some footage of Billy Smith available

also he does get a mention as the book is about the scene as a hole really and it charts alot of the Murderers row with Smith getting a mention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
It seems many of the "murderer's row" had quite unorthodox styles. Burley, Moore - Marshall if he was similar to Moore - and also Walcott, who could be said to have spent a large part of his career on "murderer's row" before he got his shot. Like Moore did.

That could well be because they probably wasn't that well managed and trained in their formative years, and therefore in large part adopted very personal styles. But some of their moves seems to have been incorporated in the text book to a degree later on. For example Moore's upper body movement and cross armed guard.

Were these guys the first slick, unorthodox technicians, perhaps? How important have they've been for the evolution of boxing? Who are their heirs today? Toney, Hopkins?
interesting that

They was mentioning how like Williams despite being unorthodox still had some of the Detriot style in him and Burley still having that Pittsburgh style in him again despite being unorthodox.

In the newspaper articles quoted they are never referred to as being weird stylists or unorthodox but rather as great technicians and all of them were great defensive technicians. Definitly slick as they were all reknowned for there offence aswell.

They cant play too much of a part in the evolution of boxing as there is not alot of films of them so people cant watch them to see what they did different etc.. which is a shame its probably why people like Fitzsimmons despite being an unorthodox style it never caught on as people didnt have the chance to see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
Hopkins and Toney both name Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott as inspirations so I guess they could be considered the "heirs" of these fighters.

Charley Burley's former sparring parner A.J. Nelson said Roy Jones reminded him of Burley.
Interesting about Hop and Toney as they are old school fighters. Not completly dissimilar to the murderers row either.

also interesting about the Jones Jr comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
That's who I would compare him to.

Maybe Marshall could be compared to Wilfredo Gomez?
high praise indeed.
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

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They cant play too much of a part in the evolution of boxing as there is not alot of films of them so people cant watch them to see what they did different etc.. which is a shame its probably why people like Fitzsimmons despite being an unorthodox style it never caught on as people didnt have the chance to see it.
There is plenty of film on Walcott and Moore. And Moore was in turn influenced by Burley it seems. Then we also have the perhaps most influential trainer post WWII, Eddie Futch, who was a huge Burley fan.
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Murderers Row - Explain their style

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There is plenty of film on Walcott and Moore. And Moore was in turn influenced by Burley it seems. Then we also have the perhaps most influential trainer post WWII, Eddie Futch, who was a huge Burley fan.
good points there

Moore was a huge Burley fan, not sure how similar they are though but Moore also went into training albeit not too heavily he must have imparted some tips to fight liek Burley.

Futch yeh forgot about him he was a huge Burley fan also didnt he work Willaims corner afew times?
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