Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-04-2009, 12:59 PM   #16
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Like I said - you can 'Duran this' and 'Napoles that' when talking head-to-head - but nobody can deny Leonard's record.

Even if you think Beau Jack was better than Lew Tendler in a direct comparison, they were still as good as each other within their own periods of time.

So regardless of how you subjectively rate them in an objective sense (how good they actually were compared to all other boxers), to beat Soldier Bartfield back then was just as monumental a challenge as beating Ray Lampkin in Duran's day. Perhaps more so.

--

Oh, and Turpin - it's absurd for you not to rate Leonard in the top ten, but then rate Canzoneri instead. Do you really think that in six or seven years the boxing methods in the lightweight division changed that drastically? That must be the reason, because Leonard dominated a terror division.

If you're not going to include him, at least have some consistency.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-04-2009, 01:02 PM   #17
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,270
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Napoles and Duran would have beat the shit out of him at LW, Mayweather and Whitaker would clearly outbox and outspeed him at the weight. Great legacy or not, the number of names can get overrated
I don't know if you are intending to start an argument or if you really believe this post, but I have to directly contradict your post.

No LW would "beat the shit" out of a prime Benny Leonard.

No LW would "clearly outbox" Benny Leonard.
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 01:04 PM   #18
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
Saoul Mamby and Ernesto Marcel were no walk-overs.

To judge the standing of a fighter based on one criteria is incomplete -even if it is the most important critieria like "quality of opposition". That being said, a good case can be made about Leonard being the greatest LW who ever lived. I'd give him a slight edge with not only quality of opposition, but with ring generalship, and dominance as well.

However, I do not believe that a strong case can be made that The Ghetto Wizard is greater than the Hands of Stone on a p4p basis. Duran's "longevity", "performance against larger men", and arguably "experience" pull him ahead there. Rightly or wrongly, I have Duran ahead partly because his win against Leonard and Barkley really magnify his greatness in his natural division.
Of course. You could argue Duran over Leonard on a pound-for-pound list, I mean, there is perhaps no greater win than that of 1980, for any fighter, ever. Despite that, I really don't think there is a debate on who was the greater lightweight unless you factor in actual fighting ability (which would be fair enough, it's not exactly an irrelevant facet of the game). About the only thing you could argue is how far behind Duran is.

I still rate Leonard above Duran - that's Benny, not Ray (REPEAT: NOT RAY) - on a pound-for-pound list as well because I genuinely believe he belongs there. #4 infact, just ahead of Sam Langford, while Duran is #7.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 01:13 PM   #19
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,270
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
Of course. You could argue Duran over Leonard on a pound-for-pound list, I mean, there is perhaps no greater win than that of 1980, for any fighter, ever. Despite that, I really don't think there is a debate on who was the greater lightweight unless you factor in actual fighting ability (which would be fair enough, it's not exactly an irrelevant facet of the game). About the only thing you could argue is how far behind Duran is.
I've been hiding my eyes from looking at it plainly... for years. Partly because Duran is a rare breed -he scores high on dominance and he collected bigger scalps; That makes it almost insulting to put any natural LW ahead of the man in his natural division. I think if someone asks, I'll just plead the 5th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
I still rate Leonard above Duran - that's Benny, not Ray (REPEAT: NOT RAY) - on a pound-for-pound list as well because I genuinely believe he belongs there. #4 infact, just ahead of Sam Langford, while Duran is #7.
Anyone who ranks Ray ahead of Roberto, has a limping reputation in the eyes of purists -however self-appointed we may be.

What is your criteria? I've developed one and it doesn't allow Benny to come within 4 paces of Duran, though he does make the top ten.
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 01:14 PM   #20
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
I don't know if you are intending to start an argument or if you really believe this post, but I have to directly contradict your post.

No LW would "beat the shit" out of a prime Benny Leonard.

No LW would "clearly outbox" Benny Leonard.
Duran and Napoles would KO him sooner or later at their best. Mayweather/Whitaker would outbox him, Whitaker more comprehensively. Times have changed from Benny's era and while great for his time boxing has moved in. Having said that Mayweather and Leonard have stylistic similarities but FMJ has a bigger box of tricks and athletic ability
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 01:17 PM   #21
redrooster
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,549
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

I been saying the same thing for a long time. When it comes to stiff competition, there is none more demanding than leonard's. Duran's comp at the same weight was just average. IMO, Benny would have outboxed Duran no doubt about it
redrooster is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 01:27 PM   #22
SLAKKA
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,897
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Dunno why you left out Ben vs Ted Kid Lewis?
SLAKKA is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 01:27 PM   #23
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster View Post
I been saying the same thing for a long time. When it comes to stiff competition, there is none more demanding than leonard's. Duran's comp at the same weight was just average. IMO, Benny would have outboxed Duran no doubt about it
Duran well and truely above Hagler "pound for pound".
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 01:30 PM   #24
(PimpThaSystem)
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Holton Street, Dean Street (click clack)
Posts: 888
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Did Leonard cut any weight? How would a lightweight from that era stack up against a lightweight from today size-wise?
(PimpThaSystem) is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 01:32 PM   #25
GPater11093
Barry
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 19,025
vCash: 836
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Quote:
Originally Posted by turpinr View Post
arguello would get rid of leonard easily
really?

dont see it myself i think Leonrd has the speed, movement and intellignce to beat Arguello

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
Saoul Mamby and Ernesto Marcel were no walk-overs.

To judge the standing of a fighter based on one criteria is incomplete -even if it is the most important critieria like "quality of opposition". That being said, a good case can be made about Leonard being the greatest LW who ever lived. I'd give him a slight edge with not only quality of opposition, but with ring generalship, and dominance as well.

However, I do not believe that a strong case can be made that The Ghetto Wizard is greater than the Hands of Stone on a p4p basis. Duran's "longevity", "performance against larger men", and arguably "experience" pull him ahead there. Rightly or wrongly, I have Duran ahead partly because his win against Leonard and Barkley really magnify his greatness in his natural division.
i have Leonard number 1 at Lightweight but Duran ahead pound for pound. Leonard at Lightweight was one of the most dominant champs ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
I don't know if you are intending to start an argument or if you really believe this post, but I have to directly contradict your post.

No LW would "beat the shit" out of a prime Benny Leonard.

No LW would "clearly outbox" Benny Leonard.
agree completly

if anyone i would pick to do the outboxing of Leonard Whittaker would be my pick. but i still dont think he does it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Duran and Napoles would KO him sooner or later at their best. Mayweather/Whitaker would outbox him, Whitaker more comprehensively. Times have changed from Benny's era and while great for his time boxing has moved in. Having said that Mayweather and Leonard have stylistic similarities but FMJ has a bigger box of tricks and athletic ability
how d you know Napoles would do it youve at most saw a 3 min clip of him at LW
GPater11093 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 02:31 PM   #26
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,277
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Quote:
Originally Posted by turpinr View Post
arguello would get rid of leonard easily
How come he went 15rds with Jim Watt then ?
And, only got a split dec over Ramirez?
Arguello was slow footed and troubled by boxers ,and no one was a better boxer than Leonard.
mcvey is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 04:17 PM   #27
joe33
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov-IZlLxQoI[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hrAs0Tyo5g[/ame]
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 04:39 PM   #28
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,270
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster View Post
I been saying the same thing for a long time. When it comes to stiff competition, there is none more demanding than leonard's. Duran's comp at the same weight was just average. IMO, Benny would have outboxed Duran no doubt about it
There's plenty of doubt about it.

Duran was extraordinarily difficult for any man his size to beat. DeJesus caught him when he was about 22 but it was avenged -decisively- twice. Duran's skill is greater than any LW Leonard ever faced and comes damn close to matching Leonard's himself. His ferocity was twice that of Tendler.

He is simply more formidable than anything Benny faced including McLarnin. And despite Benny the Brain's reputation as a ring-intellectual, Duran was no dummy in there. Someone said that Mayweather would beat Duran because of the old "brains over brawn" thesis. Duran's level of skill matches his level of brutality. He is "brainy-brawn". And it is awfully tough to beat that.

--That's why Duran was kicking the hell out of much larger prey.

Even when he was no longer the stronger guy, the more powerful guy, the faster guy, the more athletic guy --he could whip them anyway just because of his brains. Leonard cannot match him there... not even close. Now, 1978 Duran facing Benny, who he was stronger than, hit harder than, and was two inches taller than, is going to easily get outboxed?
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 04:45 PM   #29
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,270
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Duran and Napoles would KO him sooner or later at their best. Mayweather/Whitaker would outbox him, Whitaker more comprehensively. Times have changed from Benny's era and while great for his time boxing has moved in. Having said that Mayweather and Leonard have stylistic similarities but FMJ has a bigger box of tricks and athletic ability
Times have indeed changed, my friend. But the level of Benny's skill has not been topped by anyone I've ever seen. And his level of skill has not been topped by anyone you've ever seen either, despite your protestations to the contrary. Benny Leonard, like Joe Gans, is an exception to the argument that fighters before 1920 were something less.

...If "Ghetto Wizardry" or "Bennyology" were a college class, I'd encourage to study more.
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 05:08 PM   #30
teeto
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Team Ireland Manor, Easing Pabuiao into the life of managing the GOAT
Posts: 14,048
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Quote:
Originally Posted by turpinr View Post
duran,williams,arguello,buchanan,brown,canzoneri,whittaker,armstrong,ortiz and one other that escapes me.
Sorry Turpin, but i just can't understand that you don't have Leonard in the top ten, and then when you put forward ten guys, Joe Gans wasn't even in there. I don't mean to be a critic, but it's a bit mad imo. I know your reasoning's a bit to do with the h2h aspect of greatness, but still, not in the top ten i can't handle.
teeto is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013