Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

[GPater11093]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Point out to me in the footage available of him where he is off balance or where his footwork is all over the place and not perfectly positioned. I'll wait.

youll be waiting a long time

[mightyd40]

Originally Posted by GPater11093

i got about an hour and 10 mins of Gans ill send it too you

ill take it

[Mr Butt]

i read this after tunney lost to greb in 1922 tunney wanted an immediate rematch ,tunney at thi point was managed by billy gibson who also looked after leonards affairs at this time ,so gibson ask's leonard to have a word with tunney and influence him to wait a while before fighting greb again and tunney listened to leonard that is some respect

[MRBILL]

No.. No, it doesn't... Styles make fights, etc......... Ben Leonard was a slick boxer with good technique and skill, but he couldn't bust an egg over a kitchen counter........ In my view, Benny Leonard's best chance of beating Roberto Duran in a time machine would be to fight the pre 1973 Duran at 135 pounds........... Duran was NOT in his true prime when he beat Ken Buchanan in New York in 1972.... At age 21, Duran was still shy of his real prime days / years..........


SO! Okay, perhaps the Benny Leonard of 1922 does indeed school the Duran of 1972 in a time machine, that I can believe is possible.... But the Leonard of 1922 / '23 fighting the Roberto Duran of 1974 / '75 at 135 pounds, no way would Benny Leonard beat that animal in the ring.......


MR.BILL

[junior-soprano]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Roberto Duran:

Ken Buchanan
Ray Lampkin
Esteban De Jesus (x2)
Edwin Viruet (x2)

Benny Leonard:

Willie Ritchie
Johnny Kilbane
Jack Britton (x2)
Lew Tendler (x2)
Freddie Welsh (x2)
Soldier Bartfield (x3)
Johnny Dundee (x4)
Rocky Kansas (x4)

Doesn't this just speak for itself?

Yes, Leonard lost every once in a while, but you're talking about an era where you might fight four times in as many weeks. Nobody had a record like Leonard's back then apart from Harry Greb.

You can say Duran was better, and use that as part of your criteria - but if accomplishments are what you go by, there's no denying Benny Leonard.

first : i am not saying that he ain't the best. i haven't seen enough off him to make a fair judgement. but if duran was better then that is a good criteria. nothing wrong with that imo

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by sugarsean

I'm not impressed with Benny Leonard from the fights I've seen of him, he over reaches with his punches, his footwork is all over the place, he sticks his chin in the air and he is off balance most of the time, his record is great but I don't rate him highly when it comes to Hd 2 Hd .

Of course you are correct, Leonard was crude and easy to hit,a myth.
Him, and all those other old guys were rubbish.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by MRBILL

No.. No, it doesn't... Styles make fights, etc......... Ben Leonard was a slick boxer with good technique and skill, but he couldn't bust an egg over a kitchen counter........

Once again, you're talking straight out of your ass. I remember when you said something similar about Jofre.

[TheGreatA]

I wonder how Benny Leonard came up with those 70 knockouts he had if he couldn't bust an egg. Willie Ritchie, Freddie Welsh, Rocky Kansas, Johnny Kilbane and Charley White must have been taking dives.

[Bill Butcher]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Roberto Duran:

Ken Buchanan
Ray Lampkin
Esteban De Jesus (x2)
Edwin Viruet (x2)

Benny Leonard:

Willie Ritchie
Johnny Kilbane
Jack Britton (x2)
Lew Tendler (x2)
Freddie Welsh (x2)
Soldier Bartfield (x3)
Johnny Dundee (x4)
Rocky Kansas (x4)

Doesn't this just speak for itself?

Yes, Leonard lost every once in a while, but you're talking about an era where you might fight four times in as many weeks. Nobody had a record like Leonard's back then apart from Harry Greb.

You can say Duran was better, and use that as part of your criteria - but if accomplishments are what you go by, there's no denying Benny Leonard.

All this might be true.... but the tele evidence of Benny is disgraceful to say the least so we`ll never know for sure.

Im one of those posters that like to see more than the black & white words of a fighters resume.

Ps. how many times have you read/heard about a fight then when you see it, it looks fuck all like it was made out to be - THATS the reason you wont find Benny Leonard, Greb, Langford & co on my lists.


Botswana

[MRBILL]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Once again, you're talking straight out of your ass. I remember when you said something similar about Jofre.

F.O., Peawee............. If Benny Leonard even dreamed in a time machine he could hurt or KO Duran, he better wake up and apologize.......

MR.BILL

Peawee,

Also, your butt-buddy Jofre may have been great at 118 pounds, but for Christ Sake, nobody could hardly ever get that guy to leave his backyard in Brazil.......

[Drew101]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Roberto Duran:

Ken Buchanan
Ray Lampkin
Esteban De Jesus (x2)
Edwin Viruet (x2)

Benny Leonard:

Willie Ritchie
Johnny Kilbane
Jack Britton (x2)
Lew Tendler (x2)
Freddie Welsh (x2)
Soldier Bartfield (x3)
Johnny Dundee (x4)
Rocky Kansas (x4)

Doesn't this just speak for itself?

Yes, Leonard lost every once in a while, but you're talking about an era where you might fight four times in as many weeks. Nobody had a record like Leonard's back then apart from Harry Greb.

You can say Duran was better, and use that as part of your criteria - but if accomplishments are what you go by, there's no denying Benny Leonard.

Add Saoul Mamby, Ernesto Marcel, Hiroshi Kobayashi, and Guts Ishimatsu and Hector Thompson to the list of quality champions and challengers for Duran, and this becomes a lot closer in terms of comparing resume.

[MRBILL]

Originally Posted by Drew101

Add Saoul Mamby, Ernesto Marcel, Hiroshi Kobayashi, and Guts Ishimatsu and Hector Thompson to the list of quality champions and challengers for Duran, and this becomes a lot closer in terms of comparing resume.

I agree......... People tend to forgot that Duran fought plenty of NON-title fights against quality fighters at weights of 136 to 148 pounds between 1972 to 1979....


MR.BILL

[teeto]

Originally Posted by MRBILL

F.O., Peawee............. If Benny Leonard even dreamed in a time machine he could hurt or KO Duran, he better wake up and apologize.......

....

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by MRBILL

No.. No, it doesn't... Styles make fights, etc......... Ben Leonard was a slick boxer with good technique and skill, but he couldn't bust an egg over a kitchen counter........ In my view, Benny Leonard's best chance of beating Roberto Duran in a time machine would be to fight the pre 1973 Duran at 135 pounds........... Duran was NOT in his true prime when he beat Ken Buchanan in New York in 1972.... At age 21, Duran was still shy of his real prime days / years..........


SO! Okay, perhaps the Benny Leonard of 1922 does indeed school the Duran of 1972 in a time machine, that I can believe is possible.... But the Leonard of 1922 / '23 fighting the Roberto Duran of 1974 / '75 at 135 pounds, no way would Benny Leonard beat that animal in the ring.......


MR.BILL

Mr Bill,I fnd your posts entertaining ,but, you are wrong if you think Leonard couldn't punch.
He was the only man to stop Welsh.
He dropped a great welterweight in Jack Britton ,who was only stopped once in 196 fights.
Stopped Rocky Kansas,who was only stopped 3 times in 85 fights.
Kod Ritchie Mitchell twice.
Floored Jimmy duffy 6 times in 2 rds for an early stoppage.
Kod that great left hooker Charley White who was stopped 4 times in 111 fights.
Leonard had a fast and deadly right hand ko punch ,his %'s are misleading ,because he fought a ton of no dec bouts .
Read up on him a bit, he had good power.

[My2Sense]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

He retired straight after the Leonard loss (presumably this suggest he had lost focus and desire by the time of the Leonard loss),

I'd say it suggests that he had lost focus/desire after Leonard beat the piss out of him.

Welsh was supposed to be damn near "impossible" to stop right up until that fight, so a win like that is damn impressive regardless of any speculated circumstances.

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

Jack Britton - According to CBZ, he fought 2 No Decisions and lost a fight on DQ to Britton. And it seems that these fights took place over and above the lightweight limit, also.

Leonard weighed within the LW limit for one of their fights which he is credited with winning a no-decision in.