Evander Holyfield is one of the most underated fighters of all time

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by ramalinga

Holyfield didn't have one rpime and then a decline, he was going up and down. The Holyfield from the 2nd Lewis fight certainly looked a lot shaprer that the one who struggled with tiny Bobby Chyz. When he beat Tyson, he looked a lot better than when he lost to Moorer.

I don't see him beating Lewis, ever. Lewis was never outpointed and Holyfield didn't have the punch to KO him.

How did he struggle with Czyz? Because he tried to knock him out quickly and couldnt? He stopped him eventually, I would hardly call that struggling and classify more as careless fighting on Holyfields part. Its not like Czyz was a club fighter, and once Holyfield realized he wasnt getting a quick knockout he started setting him up quite easily..

[ramalinga]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Your post is full of would of's and should of's. Bowe didnt get knocked out with headgear on. The fight was stopped (prematurely in my opinion). You can watch it for yourself on youtube. You cant say how Lewis would have done against "ancient versions of Holmes and Foreman" because he never fought them. One thing is clear, he was knocked out by two fighters who werent even in the category of ancient Holmes and Foreman. He struggled with Ray Mercer, who lost to "ancient Holmes" as well. Your idea of dominating quality opposition is vastly different than mine.

I responded to your post before, which was only "if's". Fact is that Lewis KO'd a lot of good fighters who came in shape, Holyfield usually had to go to war against a quality fighter who showed up in shape. Yes, Lewis had these two KO losses which hurt him a little, but he did beat Holyfield convicingly and very few fighters ever came close to beating Lewis on points.

If Lewis wasn't a truly dominant HW, who was?

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by ramalinga

I responded to your post before, which was only "if's". Fact is that Lewis KO'd a lot of good fighters who came in shape, Holyfield usually had to go to war against a quality fighter who showed up in shape. Yes, Lewis had these two KO losses which hurt him a little, but he did beat Holyfield convicingly and very few fighters ever came close to beating Lewis on points.

If Lewis wasn't a truly dominant HW, who was?

He was a dominant fighter, but against a weaker core of opposition. In shape means nothing if you have no skills. To me fighting a fat Buster Douglas is far more dangerous than fighting Mike Grant or a guy like Andrew Golota who didnt even want to be the arena.
Holyfield was never a KO puncher because of his size, but that is really meaningless when discussing these two fighters. Lewis never fought anyone near the caliber of a prime Riddick Bowe, so we dont know how well he would have done, but Lewis certainly didnt fight the caliber of fighters that Holyfield did overall.

[TBooze]

Holyfield is far from underrated he probably is given a bit too much print, but then that is the same for all Heavies.

He is a top 10 all-time Heavyweight, who hurt his rating by fighting to his opponents level. Great if you have Bowe or Lennox in the opposite corner, not so great if it is Czyz or old man Foreman...

[killerkai1]

Underrated Holyfield?, if only he had fought Lewis five years earlier........

[ramalinga]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

He was a dominant fighter, but against a weaker core of opposition. In shape means nothing if you have no skills. To me fighting a fat Buster Douglas is far more dangerous than fighting Mike Grant or a guy like Andrew Golota who didnt even want to be the arena.
Holyfield was never a KO puncher because of his size, but that is really meaningless when discussing these two fighters. Lewis never fought anyone near the caliber of a prime Riddick Bowe, so we dont know how well he would have done, but Lewis certainly didnt fight the caliber of fighters that Holyfield did overall.

Riddick Bowe's reputation is basically build on his trilogy with Holyfield, they both elevate each other quite a bit. How good Bowe reall was is debatable, but Bowe - Lewis in the Olympics, Bowe - Golota and Lewis - Golota may be hints that Lewis would have handled Bowe quite well. Besides Holyfield gets so much credit for Bowe because of how bravely he fought, but he lost two out of three and won the rematch under the most bizarre circumstances by the smallest margin possible in boxing. I don't agree that a fat Douglas, who only put together all his skills in one fight in his career, was more dangerous than Grant or Golota.

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by ramalinga

Riddick Bowe's reputation is basically build on his trilogy with Holyfield, they both elevate each other quite a bit. How good Bowe reall was is debatable, but Bowe - Lewis in the Olympics, Bowe - Golota and Lewis - Golota may be hints that Lewis would have handled Bowe quite well. Besides Holyfield gets so much credit for Bowe because of how bravely he fought, but he lost two out of three and won the rematch under the most bizarre circumstances by the smallest margin possible in boxing. I don't agree that a fat Douglas, who only put together all his skills in one fight in his career, was more dangerous than Grant or Golota.

Its not debateable how good Bowe was, he became the undisputed heavyweight champion by beating a proven great fighter. Not even Lewis beat as great a fighter to win his titles. He was never knocked out by anyone on the level of Mcall or Rahman. He wasnt a one hit wonder either. He, as Douglas were certainly better than Grant or Golota who accomplished nothing. What has Golota done other than beat up on a shot Riddick Bowe and lose? Hes lost every meaningful fight hes ever been in, yet hes always listed as a great win for Lewis because of what he did to Bowe, who you believe might not have been that good.
Frank Bruno, Ray Mercer, and Hasim Rahman showed us just as much about Lewis as Golota did of Bowe, yet Bowe retired with one close loss on his career.
As far as Lewis, he never faced a prime Holyfield, he never faced a prime Bowe, or Tyson, so its all speculation of how he would have done, and based on who he did fight and when, its not as impressive as Holyfield.

[BoxingFanNo1]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

THis is a pretty shitty post. If he had Lennox Lewis comp he would have dominated the same. Likewise if Lewis had Holy's he may have been a commentator by the mid 90's.

No, THIS is a pretty shitty post.

Lewis would have been a commentator by the mid 90's? gtfo.

96-97 Tyson would have been beaten by Lewis. Tyson post D'Amato - Rooney ALWAYS loses to Lewis.
94 - 97 Moorer? Don't make me laugh!!
92-93&95 Bowe, well, we all know how badly Bowe wanted to fight Lewis
Douglas, Foreman, Holmes?

Sorry where do you get this Holy's 90's opposition would have retired Lewis fantasy?

Addressing the TS, the biggest % of peoples evaluation of Holyfield's status is fine, just inside/outside the top 10 HW's. I have him 12th.

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by BoxingFanNo1

No, THIS is a pretty shitty post.

Lewis would have been a commentator by the mid 90's? gtfo.

96-97 Tyson would have been beaten by Lewis. Tyson post D'Amato - Rooney ALWAYS loses to Lewis.
94 - 97 Moorer? Don't make me laugh!!
92-93&95 Bowe, well, we all know how badly Bowe wanted to fight Lewis
Douglas, Foreman, Holmes?

Sorry where do you get this Holy's 90's opposition would have retired Lewis fantasy?

Addressing the TS, the biggest % of peoples evaluation of Holyfield's status is fine, just inside/outside the top 10 HW's. I have him 12th.

Shocking post by your avatar.

[BoxingFanNo1]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Shocking post by your avatar.

Come on now, you were too harsh on Lewis!

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by BoxingFanNo1

Come on now, you were too harsh on Lewis!

I like Lewis, I think he was a great fighter, but I still rank Holy over him. My main feeling about Lewis is he really didnt become a real world class fighter until the mid 90's. I think there was enough proof in his earlier fights, that he might not have done as well if he didnt make the changes he did. I'd put the 97-98 version of Lewis competitively up against all of them, but early in the 90's I think his career might have been cut massively short if he did face some of the better guys. He just wasnt ready in my opinion. He could box like a world class fighter but he couldnt fight like one.

[Zakman]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

I would rate him above Tyson and Lewis personally.

Absolutely. Nice to see that others feel this way. The fact that he is not routinely rated above these guys demonstrates how underrated he is.

[motownsiu]

i think it's because he's ruining his legacy right now by still fighting and that's why people think he's underated.

[anarci]

I think he is underrated big time on ESB. People forget how dominant he was at Cruiser and I just dont see to many fighters in any weight class beating the Cruiser version of Holyfield in a HTH matchup,his Cruiserweight reign has to count for something.
Now his Heavyweight reign and resume is very impressive in my eyes and I have him around #7. To start out as cruiser and go on to be an ATG heavyweight when Heavyweights were so much bigger than ever before is impressive and an underrated achievement. I actually have him around 20 on my ATG PFP list.

[Shake]

Originally Posted by TheUnstoppable

I think he's rated pretty much spot on: best CW ever and easily a top 15 HW

I agree with this, and add that it is pretty special to be both a natural cruiserweight and one of the best fifteen heavyweights that ever lived.