Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

Manassa · 11-25-2009, 09:00 PM

[IMG]***********.cyberboxingzone.com/images/ross-barney-111.jpg[/IMG]

Let's first establish that Ross was not just another lighter weight champion of his day - he was an exciting and popular champion who drew massive crowds and hype, much like Oscar De La Hoya in today's boxing world.

Let us also realise that the man was a genuine war hero, awarded the Silver Star for his nothing-more-than sheer heroic exploits during the second world war. Not that this has any effect on his boxing rating, but learning this fact may be the first breeze to help sway your opinion. That is, if there is actually anyone out there who doesn't already know about Ross.

Why should Barney Ross be in everyone's top ten? If I were to guess, I shouldn't think many more than 5% of us include him at present - he tends to normally be recognised as a good triple weight champion and features in the lower top twenty or sometimes thirty.

Let's continue with how good a performer he was. In an era where even the greats seemed to lose regularly, he was the epitome of consistency and professionalism at its finest, retiring with a record of 72-4-3, somewhat helped by his glorious amateur career in the '20s where he honed his craft over two hundred and fifty unpaid bouts. Ross was thought to be the best fighter since Benny Leonard and perhaps on par.

Professional championship credentials?:

- Lightweight champion, one defence.

- Light welterweight champion, ten defences.

- Two time welterweight champion, two defences.

Had Ross existed in a weaker era, he'd probably have reigned supreme. He did anyway - but we'd be talking about title defence figures in the twenties.

Ross' record against Ring rated opponents*:

Ray Miller
Johnny Farr (x2)
Tommy Grogan
Joe Ghnouly
Sammy Fuller
Pete Nebo
Frankie Klick (x2)
Bobby Pacho (x2)
Baby Joe Gans
Ceferino Garcia (x3)
Chuck Woods (x2)
Izzy Jannazzo

Battling Battalino
Billy Petrolle (x2)
Tony Canzoneri (x2)
Jimmy McLarnin (x2)

*End of year ratings, Hall of Famers in bold

Compared to the rest of my own top ten, Ross' record is slightly thin on the quantity of contenders side of things, even though he beat world challengers more times than Carlos Ortiz, for instance. However, like Ortiz, Ross' proved to be the best of a strong era at the top end of the scale. What also bodes well for him is the fact he rarely lost. Between his loss to Roger Bernard, still in the early days of his relatively short career, and his final stand against Armstrong, Ross went 55-1-1 over a seven year span. The only loss came against Jimmy McLarnin - the draw, controversial, at the hands of contender Frankie Klick.

Going by my own list, he beat two fighters in the top twenty pound-for-pound, in their prime, going 4-1.

Never knocked out either, not even in his last fight against Henry Armstrong.

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Sam Langford
5. Benny Leonard
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Archie Moore
10. Barney Ross

14. Tony Canzoneri

17. Jimmy McLarnin

--

Thoughts?

WhataRock · 11-25-2009, 09:19 PM

Close to it IMO..Lock for top 20 Ive come to realise.

But my anti-semitism just cant bring me to do it.

Manassa · 11-25-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhataRock

Close to it IMO..Lock for top 20 Ive come to realise.

But my anti-semitism just cant bring me to do it.

Does Benny Leonard suffer?

It seems I'm a fan of the jews.

Rise Above · 11-25-2009, 09:31 PM

I personally think he is just outside the top ten but I can see how the argument can be made for him to be a top ten guy.

Manassa · 11-25-2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rise Above

I personally think he is just outside the top ten but I can see how the argument can be made for him to be a top ten guy.

He has a completely different kind of record to the man I rate one place above him. Need to be fair to all, I think. Barney Ross was consistency and quality in a short space of time while Archie Moore was quantity and longevity.

Bummy Davis · 11-25-2009, 09:41 PM

Barney Ross was under Benny Leonard but still an ATG

WhataRock · 11-25-2009, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manassa

Does Benny Leonard suffer?

It seems I'm a fan of the jews.

I had Leonard in the 10 for a while but I think he should sit about on the cusp..Around 10-11.

Ive always had him a little higher then Barney

SLAKKA · 11-25-2009, 10:47 PM

His book is a must read

ripcity · 11-26-2009, 12:48 AM

Ross defently belongs in the top 10.

sweet_scientist · 11-26-2009, 04:56 AM

Which of the following fighters would he displace to enter into the top 10 and why?

Harry Greb
Sugar Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langford
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Roberto Duran
Henry Armstrong
Joe Gans
Archie Moore

sweet_scientist · 11-26-2009, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

Which of the following fighters would he displace to enter into the top 10 and why?

Harry Greb
Sugar Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langford
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Roberto Duran
Henry Armstrong
Joe Gans
Archie Moore

Well, bothering to read Manassa's post before I actually responded this time, the answer is obviously Gans, lol.

I'm ok with Barney being top 10, but I'd have Gans above him myself....

I don't detract much from Gans for the McGovern farce or the Langford loss.

Btw, where would Packey McFarland rank for you Manassa?

My2Sense · 11-26-2009, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

Which of the following fighters would he displace to enter into the top 10 and why?

Harry Greb
Sugar Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langford
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Roberto Duran
Henry Armstrong
Joe Gans
Archie Moore

I'd rate Ross over both Pep and Gans, and possibly Moore as well. Ross was just as great as them in his prime weight class but also had more success at the higher ones.

asero · 11-26-2009, 06:54 AM

not even top 3 at LW...

PowerPuncher · 11-26-2009, 06:58 AM

Looking at other LWs who also became WW champs, I would rate Armstrong, Duran, Napoles, Whitaker, Mayweather, Pacquaio over him and probably Chavez and Arguello to around that weight range

Flea Man · 11-26-2009, 07:11 AM

Yep, no.10 for me, has been for a while.

Also clear on the small amount of film I've seen that he was a damn good fighter.

Didn't disgrace himself against Armstrong IMO. Which was his final fight if I'm not wrong.

It's fighters like McClarnin I have trouble ranking. Just haven't delved into them enough yet. Any footage available of McClarnin? At work and can't get on the tube

11-25-2009, 09:00 PM	#1
Manassa - ESB Addict Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: ESB since '05 Posts: 3,883 vCash: 75	Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great [IMG]**********.cyberboxingzone.com/images/ross-barney-111.jpg[/IMG] Let's first establish that Ross was not just another lighter weight champion of his day - he was an exciting and popular champion who drew massive crowds and hype, much like Oscar De La Hoya in today's boxing world. Let us also realise that the man was a genuine war hero, awarded the Silver Star for his nothing-more-than sheer heroic exploits during the second world war. Not that this has any effect on his boxing rating, but learning this fact may be the first breeze to help sway your opinion. That is, if there is actually anyone out there who doesn't already know about Ross. Why should Barney Ross be in everyone's top ten? If I were to guess, I shouldn't think many more than 5% of us include him at present - he tends to normally be recognised as a good triple weight champion and features in the lower top twenty or sometimes thirty. Let's continue with how good a performer he was. In an era where even the greats seemed to lose regularly, he was the epitome of consistency and professionalism at its finest, retiring with a record of 72-4-3, somewhat helped by his glorious amateur career in the '20s where he honed his craft over two hundred and fifty unpaid bouts. Ross was thought to be the best fighter since Benny Leonard and perhaps on par. Professional championship credentials?: - Lightweight champion, one defence. - Light welterweight champion, ten defences. - Two time welterweight champion, two defences. Had Ross existed in a weaker era, he'd probably have reigned supreme. He did anyway - but we'd be talking about title defence figures in the twenties. Ross' record against Ring rated opponents: Ray Miller Johnny Farr (x2) Tommy Grogan Joe Ghnouly Sammy Fuller Pete Nebo Frankie Klick (x2) Bobby Pacho (x2) Baby Joe Gans Ceferino Garcia (x3) Chuck Woods (x2) Izzy Jannazzo Battling Battalino Billy Petrolle (x2) Tony Canzoneri (x2) Jimmy McLarnin (x2) End of year ratings, Hall of Famers in bold* Compared to the rest of my own top ten, Ross' record is slightly thin on the quantity of contenders side of things, even though he beat world challengers more times than Carlos Ortiz, for instance. However, like Ortiz, Ross' proved to be the best of a strong era at the top end of the scale. What also bodes well for him is the fact he rarely lost. Between his loss to Roger Bernard, still in the early days of his relatively short career, and his final stand against Armstrong, Ross went 55-1-1 over a seven year span. The only loss came against Jimmy McLarnin - the draw, controversial, at the hands of contender Frankie Klick. Going by my own list, he beat two fighters in the top twenty pound-for-pound, in their prime, going 4-1. Never knocked out either, not even in his last fight against Henry Armstrong. 1. Henry Armstrong 2. Harry Greb 3. Ray Robinson 4. Sam Langford 5. Benny Leonard 6. Ezzard Charles 7. Roberto Duran 8. Willie Pep 9. Archie Moore 10. Barney Ross 14. Tony Canzoneri 17. Jimmy McLarnin -- Thoughts?
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11-25-2009, 09:19 PM	#2
WhataRock Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 11,619 vCash: 166	Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great Close to it IMO..Lock for top 20 Ive come to realise. But my anti-semitism just cant bring me to do it.
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11-25-2009, 09:31 PM	#4
Rise Above 25 title defenses! ESB Addict Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 3,882 vCash: 210	Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great I personally think he is just outside the top ten but I can see how the argument can be made for him to be a top ten guy.
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11-25-2009, 09:41 PM	#6
Bummy Davis Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: New York Posts: 8,239 vCash: 1000	Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great Barney Ross was under Benny Leonard but still an ATG
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11-25-2009, 10:47 PM	#8
SLAKKA Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,710 vCash: 1000	Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great His book is a must read
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11-26-2009, 12:48 AM	#9
ripcity Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: "Somebody may beat me, but they are going to have to bleed to do it." Posts: 10,009 vCash: 845	Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great Ross defently belongs in the top 10.
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11-26-2009, 04:56 AM	#10
sweet_scientist Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,872 vCash: 1000	Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great Which of the following fighters would he displace to enter into the top 10 and why? Harry Greb Sugar Ray Robinson Ezzard Charles Sam Langford Benny Leonard Willie Pep Roberto Duran Henry Armstrong Joe Gans Archie Moore
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11-26-2009, 06:54 AM	#13
asero Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 8,370 vCash: 75	Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great not even top 3 at LW...
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11-26-2009, 06:58 AM	#14
PowerPuncher P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 20,386 vCash: 1000	Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great Looking at other LWs who also became WW champs, I would rate Armstrong, Duran, Napoles, Whitaker, Mayweather, Pacquaio over him and probably Chavez and Arguello to around that weight range
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11-26-2009, 07:11 AM	#15
Flea Man มวยสากล East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: @ferociousflea Posts: 39,824 vCash: 75	Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great Yep, no.10 for me, has been for a while. Also clear on the small amount of film I've seen that he was a damn good fighter. Didn't disgrace himself against Armstrong IMO. Which was his final fight if I'm not wrong. It's fighters like McClarnin I have trouble ranking. Just haven't delved into them enough yet. Any footage available of McClarnin? At work and can't get on the tube
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