Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Very good post and I agree on all counts.

You could have cut it short by saying "you were right about Hearns-KG" though

Well, you haven't converted me totally to your view, but I at least see the merit now in what you were saying, which is why I am undecided as to who wins it.

OK, ok you were right you bastard

[McGrain]

Sounds like KG and the additional footage you've seen did most of the convincing, though.

[Unforgiven]

Kid Gavilan is instantly impressive on film.
I'd rate him above Hearns, Leonard and Duran and welterweight. And if "fantasy match-ups" count for anything, I'd pick him to beat all three, matched peak for peak.

Barney Ross is worthy of the top 10 p4p of all-time, but I'd probably say that about another 20 or 30 great fighters too.

[Mantequilla]

Anyone else think Basilio beat gavilan?.I thought he might have eged it last time i watched it, but i've never sat down and properly scored it.

[GPater11093]

Originally Posted by fleaman

For me, Gavilan wins at least one in a series of 3 with ANYBODY (bar Robinson, for obvious reasons, but thats because Sugar Ray was THAT good)

Anyone who is terrible for the Kid stylistically?

I thought Basilio gave him a hell of a rough time. I thought Basilio won their fight but in a series of 3 i think Basilio would win 2-1.

Originally Posted by Mantequilla

Anyone else think Basilio beat gavilan?.I thought he might have eged it last time i watched it, but i've never sat down and properly scored it.

I had it to Basilio by a round if i remember.

[My2Sense]

Originally Posted by Mantequilla

Anyone else think Basilio beat gavilan?.I thought he might have eged it last time i watched it, but i've never sat down and properly scored it.

I thought it could've gone either way. Basilio had the edge in many of the early rounds, but I thought Gavilan came back very strongly over the second half of the fight. I scored the last round for Gavvy, which I thought gave him the decision (roughly 8 rounds to 7), although my scorecard would've been different had the fight been scored on points. One of the closest fights I've ever seen though.

[My2Sense]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

Gavilan is so diverse there's not many that he would be stylistically weak against but yeah Hearns would probably be my choice. I don't see Gavilan being out of his depth with any welter though really, even though some might nick a decision off him.

Same here.

Gavilan may not have hit hard enough to take advantage of Hearns' greatest weaknesses, which puts him at something of a disadvantage here, but I think it also remains to be seen how Hearns would handle his skill and workrate on the inside. I wouldn't rule out Gavilan hustling Hearns to a decision win.


Funny that Gavilan has been brought up in this thread, as I always felt he and Ross had comparable styles and attributes. Both were very fast, aggressive boxers, both very skilled but also willing to mix it at close quarters, and both renown for their iron chins (and neither were ever stopped).

[sweet_scientist]

I had Gavilan taking it by three points, but I had 4 even rounds in my scoring which could be argued Basilio's way. Don't really have an issue with anyone thinking Basilio won, but Gavilan did have an edge as far as I saw it.

[GPater11093]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

I had Gavilan taking it by three points, but I had 4 even rounds in my scoring which could be argued Basilio's way. Don't really have an issue with anyone thinking Basilio won, but Gavilan did have an edge as far as I saw it.

fair enough it was a very close fight could have went either way, do you think that was the best version of Basilio?

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by GPater11093

fair enough it was a very close fight could have went either way, do you think that was the best version of Basilio?

If not the best it was very close to it. He had already beaten (and then drawn) with Billy Graham beforehand so I don't think he was green any longer.

His first performances against Pierre Langlois after the Gavilan fight was pretty underwhelming (thought he lost that one) but I felt he looked much better against Kid Gavilan than he did for Langlois. Might have been that he simply underrated Langlois and didn't train as hard for that one as he could have.

[GPater11093]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

If not the best it was very close to it. He had already beaten (and then drawn) with Billy Graham beforehand so I don't think he was green any longer.

His first performances against Pierre Langlois after the Gavilan fight was pretty underwhelming (thought he lost that one) but I felt he looked much better against Kid Gavilan than he did for Langlois. Might have been that he simply underrated Langlois and didn't train as hard for that one as he could have.

fair enough i think he was just slightly pre-prime and this fight helped him gain alot more experiance. Still a decent win though for Gav.

[My2Sense]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

If not the best it was very close to it. He had already beaten (and then drawn) with Billy Graham beforehand so I don't think he was green any longer.

His first performances against Pierre Langlois after the Gavilan fight was pretty underwhelming (thought he lost that one) but I felt he looked much better against Kid Gavilan than he did for Langlois. Might have been that he simply underrated Langlois and didn't train as hard for that one as he could have.

I thought he was still clearly pre-peak against Langlois. I don't think it was so much a matter of being "green" as simply fine-tuning his style; similar to Dick Tiger when he first came to the States. Particularly, Basilio improved his balance and was smoother and more fluid in his movements post-Gavilan/Langlois. Also, I think he was savvier and perhaps even more confident.