debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

[hhascup]

Originally Posted by Minotauro

Charles wasn't at his best when he fought Marciano but he was still a quality fighter. His speed and reflexes had gone down but he could still box well and his upper body movement was still great. His prime was at light heavy before the Baroudi tragedy. In his second fight with Marhsall he looks notably lighter on his feet and has more bounce to him then in the heavyweight fights mentioned above. Either way it was a very good win for Marciano unlike the Louis win who was totally shot. Rocky said himself he was surprised how light Joe's punches felt, I doubt anyone said that about Louis in his prime.

P.S I also feel Charles beat Johnson it was a close fight but Ezzard should have got the nod and the ref should have scored the knockdown.

Back then they scored the matches by rounds not points, so a knockdown would only win him the round,

Here's the scoring of the Charles/Johnson bout:

• Referee Buck McTiernan - 6-3-1 Johnson
• Judge Joe Capristo - 5-4-1 Charles
• Judge Lou Tress - 7-3 Johnson
• Unofficial AP scorecard - 5-3-2 Johnson

[TheGreatA]

Ezzard Charles vs Harold Johnson was a close fight that I've seen people score either way, never by wide margins. Would the Charles of 1947 truly go to a close decision with the Harold Johnson of 1953?

[MrMarvel]

Marciano is so wide open and ponderous. It's surprising to see a heavyweight who is so small be so ponderous.

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

He was never a dancer but he did move a lot more against Louis than he did against Marciano. He also got hit more by 1953-1954 than previously.



And occasionally with his face as well.

Feel free to mute the video:

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If Charles was never a dancer, than the question of his supposed decrease in mobility is drifting into tedious irrelvance..its what you would call a "stretch." Now a noticable slide in defense however as you suggest would be more telling. However I would certainly say Walcot and Louis hit Charles more frequently than Wallace, Satterfield, and Layne combined in 53-54. We both know this is because of the considerable difference in punching talent in his opponents moreso than varying defense on Charles' part.


Now, the Satterfield fight you described as Charles being "more of a slugger who took a beating before landing a knockout blow." Sorry, but I don't see it. Maybe could describe "Layne/Satterfield" that way. I see one of the best and most dangerous starters in heavyweight history going for broke while Charles slips and deflects most of his attack, waiting for an opening and finding one fairly easily. Of course, Satterfield snuck in a few punches...he's going to. Credit to the crafty Charles for avoiding most of them and not letting him string anything together. He looks like a boxer too me in this and the first Marciano fight.

You also ask if 47 Charles would lose a disputed decision to a fellow all time great in Harold Johnson. Well he did lose a disputed decision to Elmer Ray in a close fight where Ring thought he was the more effective fighter but the judges didn't see it that way. Save the third Walcott meeting and the Marciano fights, the same can be said for his most of his losses from 47-54. Maybe if Johnson and Valdez gave Charles' rematches the judges would see it different...Valdez' people flat out refused after scoring the upset in the big Cuban's quasi hometown.

[nikrj]

BS. Louis at 37 was dangerous, but didn't have his speed and power anymore.

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by keure

when he fought marciano.
First let me start by saying ali was the greatest heavy of all time, but i feel like marciano has grown very underapreciated/ undrrated over the years. I would place marciano as 4 or 5 on an all time heavys list, probably 4. That list being, 1. ali, 2. louis, 3. Dempsey, 4. Marciano, 5. johnson followed closely by the likes of foreman holyfield tyson lewis. However over the years people have become so quick to discredit marcianos achievements because they feel his best comp was past their prime when they fought. First of all if that was the case their is nothing he could do about it and secondly he did retire undefeated which with an amazing ko percentage which in terms of accomplishment still has not been matched. Lastly i rank louis ahead of marciano on my all time list because i take eveythiong in to account, his longevity his durability and his competition, howvever i feel marciano beats louis at any point in his carreer in terms of head to head competition. Marciano had dynamite in both fists and marathon runner stamina, they said that he would wake up in december and run 15 miles in the snow. I think even in louis's prime marcaino knocks him out cold while behind on the cards in a close fight. Lastly when marciano fought louis, louis was not as past it as most louis fans would like you to believe, louis was 37, look at vitali klit at nearly 39 and what george foreman and bhop are and were able to do in their mid 40's, but more than just the age it was his activity, activity is a fighters best friend, and louis fought 8 times in the 11 months prior to the marciano fight beating the likes of jimmy bivins and cesar brion( 79 -20, and 29-3 respectively) so he wasnt really that past it after all i mean 8 victories in 10 months , 2 over very good comp, the myth of him being completely past it was created to protect his image and rightfully so. Louis was an amzing champion, who is deservingly one of the 3 greatest heavys of all time, but he really wasnt that past it when he got knocked out against marciano, and the result would have occured at any point in his career.

You're wrong actually.






Louis was better than he ever was when he fought Marciano

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by nikrj

BS. Louis at 37 was dangerous, but didn't have his speed and power anymore.

Dude you really like digging old threads do you

[nikrj]

Originally Posted by Colonel Sanders

Dude you really like digging old threads do you

[ripcity]

How good was Jimmy Bivins when Joe Louis beat him?

[Seamus]

Louis was a shell of a shell. Just from the film, his right hand was completely gone, his timing like 50 year old. He was only Joe Louis in name.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by keure

when he fought marciano.
First let me start by saying ali was the greatest heavy of all time, but i feel like marciano has grown very underapreciated/ undrrated over the years. I would place marciano as 4 or 5 on an all time heavys list, probably 4. That list being, 1. ali, 2. louis, 3. Dempsey, 4. Marciano, 5. johnson followed closely by the likes of foreman holyfield tyson lewis. However over the years people have become so quick to discredit marcianos achievements because they feel his best comp was past their prime when they fought. First of all if that was the case their is nothing he could do about it and secondly he did retire undefeated which with an amazing ko percentage which in terms of accomplishment still has not been matched. Lastly i rank louis ahead of marciano on my all time list because i take eveythiong in to account, his longevity his durability and his competition, howvever i feel marciano beats louis at any point in his carreer in terms of head to head competition. Marciano had dynamite in both fists and marathon runner stamina, they said that he would wake up in december and run 15 miles in the snow. I think even in louis's prime marcaino knocks him out cold while behind on the cards in a close fight. Lastly when marciano fought louis, louis was not as past it as most louis fans would like you to believe, louis was 37, look at vitali klit at nearly 39 and what george foreman and bhop are and were able to do in their mid 40's, but more than just the age it was his activity, activity is a fighters best friend, and louis fought 8 times in the 11 months prior to the marciano fight beating the likes of jimmy bivins and cesar brion( 79 -20, and 29-3 respectively) so he wasnt really that past it after all i mean 8 victories in 10 months , 2 over very good comp, the myth of him being completely past it was created to protect his image and rightfully so. Louis was an amzing champion, who is deservingly one of the 3 greatest heavys of all time, but he really wasnt that past it when he got knocked out against marciano, and the result would have occured at any point in his career.

To COMPARE the Joe Louis at 37 years of age to the PRIME trip hammer puncher of the Max Baer/Schmeling #2 fight is preposterous. The Louis of the Max Baer fight would decimate the 37 year old shell of Louis who fought Marciano in 1951.
Marciano who I saw almost kill Carmine Vingo in 1951 ,would have lost to the young prime Joe Louis most assuredly...Louis at his best hit so fast, so accurate, so powerfully that Marciano would be tko'd IMO...Marciano, lest we forget missed half his punches, and Louis would get there first and ANYONE Louis hurts he kos...Speed always wins against two punchers...
And the Joe Louis of his prime ,gets to and batters any version of Clay/Ali
and tko's Ali, BOTH in their prime...The rope-a-dope would never work on
Joe Louis who never missed his punches,and made every punch count IMO...

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

To COMPARE the Joe Louis at 37 years of age to the PRIME trip hammer puncher of the Max Baer/Schmeling #2 fight is preposterous. The Louis of the Max Baer fight would decimate the 37 year old shell of Louis who fought Marciano in 1951.
Marciano who I saw almost kill Carmine Vingo in 1951 ,would have lost to the young prime Joe Louis most assuredly...Louis at his best hit so fast, so accurate, so powerfully that Marciano would be tko'd IMO...Marciano, lest we forget missed half his punches, and Louis would get there first and ANYONE Louis hurts he kos...Speed always wins against two punchers...
And the Joe Louis of his prime ,gets to and batters any version of Clay/Ali
and tko's Ali, BOTH in their prime...The rope-a-dope would never work on
Joe Louis who never missed his punches,and made every punch count IMO...

This.

Prime Louis destroys Marciano. Prime Louis destroys just about every heavyweight on their best day.

[Saintpat]

This should straighten out the myth of Joe Louis' age:

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[Saintpat]

*deleted*

[janitor]

I think it is possible to give Marciano credit for the fight, without detracting from Louis.

Louis was the greatest heavyweight of all time in his prime.

At this stage he was totally past it, but it would still have taken an exceptional fighter to beat him.

Its not an either or thing.