How many does Liston win vs...

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Ted Spoon

drooling over his tool.

[Ted Spoon]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

The insinuation you made was clear, it's not being a direct comparison was never disputed. The statement stands.

It is difficult to place a measurable value on "aptitude towards churning out sticky situations where [a fighter] was dragged into deeper waters than usual." Perhaps if his chin were a bit less solid, he would have proven himself more (?). It may simply mean dominance. It may also be the formidability or lack thereof in the field.

I give Sonny credit for fighting only 6 guys in 54 fights who were without winning records. In his 6th fight he's thrown in against Summerlin. Sonny, mobbed up or not, wasn't fed a series of tomato cans like most fighters. Compare the w/l records of his opponents against say, Marcel Cerdan.

The remark was not insinuative of a parallel between 'Old stone face' and 'Iron' Mike with regards to their actual ability, but rather how their fans perceive their man and then elevate their actual ability. Fans get too far ahead of themselves, that is the point.

Ultimately, the faith put into Liston is not just. If all the greatest Heavyweights locked horns there would be losses left, right and centre as the talent pool would be great and the opponent gauging poor.

[Marnoff]

Why even put Ali on the list? That's a moot point since we know how that fight goes.

[JohnBKelly]

Sonny would have very brutal even fights with every guy on the list. Only Ali and Johnson have better than even chances against a peak Sonny.

[Stonehands89]

Originally Posted by Ted Spoon

The remark was not insinuative of a parallel between 'Old stone face' and 'Iron' Mike with regards to their actual ability, but rather how their fans perceive their man and then elevate their actual ability. Fans get too far ahead of themselves, that is the point.

Ultimately, the faith put into Liston is not just. If all the greatest Heavyweights locked horns there would be losses left, right and centre as the talent pool would be great and the opponent gauging poor.

Perhaps I am straining gnats but it seems clear that you question Liston's "wiring" ..."his aptitude" to deal with tough situations. Circumstances and other events in his career besides the dive in Maine cast some doubt on your position. We simply disagree there.

You offer a subjective a post -and methinks that your induced it from a pretty faulty and specific event -Liston had a dog in him. Maine was enough for you. In any event, fans often elevate ability. It's done out here regularly. Few sets of fans out here elevate, glorify, and in my opinion, fool themselves about their man more than the fans of Fitzsimmons. If my memory is right, you are among them.

I think it is better to approach this question in terms of probability -subjective yes, but the debates won't necessarily deteroriate into nonsense if we try to be honest and objective about what each man brings to the table.

I invite you to give me a name of the one champion you see as the odds on favorite who would walk away with the best record against his peers. List who you favor against Liston and by what %. It would reveal just how out of sync we are here.

[Stonehands89]

Originally Posted by JohnBKelly

Sonny would have very brutal even fights with every guy on the list. Only Ali and Johnson have better than even chances against a peak Sonny.

Ah... a like mind. Would you mind presenting an argument as to why Johnson should be favored?

[Stonehands89]

Originally Posted by dave krieg

Liston beats Marciano,Dempsey,Louis.Johnson but loses to the others.They were all to skilled and fast for Liston who only looked good against fighters like Floyd Patters on who he outweighed by about 30 plus pounds.

Tell me how Frazier beats him. And Foreman.