Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-27-2007, 11:50 AM   #1
Bad_Intentions
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Miami FL, USA
Posts: 3,688
vCash: 153
Default Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

PRIME LISTON (early 50's through early 60's) v.s Young Cassius Clay

predictions?
Bad_Intentions is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 06-27-2007, 11:53 AM   #2
apollack
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,527
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Clay by decision.
apollack is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 12:25 PM   #3
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Clay himself laughed off the idea in an early 1960's television interview. He had already worked as a sparring partner for Sonny, and understood that Liston would demolish him at that point in their careers. It was only as he ascended the ranks in 1963, while Liston remained increasingly inactive, that he evolved the realization and confidence that the aging Liston was ready to be taken. When viewing Clay's dismal 1963 performance against Doug Jones, and the way Cooper blasted him down in London during his final match before challenging Liston, it remains obvious, even today, that the overwhelming odds in favor of Liston were justified. (It may well be that the odds were also influenced by Clay's expressed reluctance to face Liston in that earlier admission on camera.)

The perfection of timing in his dethroning of Liston is one of the astounding things in sports history. Somehow, he abruptly peaked at the most unpredictably optimum time to kick his performance level up to a previously unsuspected level. Liston would have beaten him if he'd intercepted Clay prior to February 1964, but from that time on, no version of Liston could have defeated him.
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 12:29 PM   #4
C. M. Clay II
Manassah's finest!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 1,138
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad_Intentions
PRIME LISTON (early 50's through early 60's) v.s Young Cassius Clay

predictions?
If it was 62' or before, then Liston wins by knockout in under 8 rounds.
C. M. Clay II is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 12:31 PM   #5
Bad_Intentions
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Miami FL, USA
Posts: 3,688
vCash: 153
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Quote:
Originally Posted by C. M. Clay II
If it was 62' or before, then Liston wins by knockout in under 8 rounds.
like i said, (liston in his prime (early 50's and early 60's).

i wouldn't say a ko tho. maybe liston would pick up a decision.
Bad_Intentions is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 12:31 PM   #6
C. M. Clay II
Manassah's finest!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 1,138
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank
What?
I know, right? Clay wasn't "blasted". He was floored, he got up quickly and finished him off in the next round. The Ali hate on this forum is unbelievable.
C. M. Clay II is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 12:32 PM   #7
groove
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,028
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Quote:
He had already worked as a sparring partner for Sonny
I've never heard of Ali being a sparring partner for Liston. You gotta provide some proof.
groove is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 01:12 PM   #8
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank
What?
Somehow, young Clay's ability to take a punch solidified between Cooper's knockdown and the dethroning of Liston. Sonny had an easier time reaching him than Cooper did, but his punches didn't have the same effect. (That could be explained by Liston throwing out his left shoulder early in reaching for his elusive challenger, as Sonny's left was his most educated weapon. Of course Cooper didn't land him by reaching out, but by drawing him in.) Perhaps Ali was always wrong for Liston, but my guess is that in 1963, Sonny would have hit and hurt him enough to stop him. (Then again, it could be that a healthy and in condition Sonny would have always been able to take him out, if only he could have managed to connect solidly. Of course that's the whole essence of boxing: Hit, and not be hit.)
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 01:44 PM   #9
groove
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,028
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Ali fought Cooper in June 63 and then his next fight was for the title in Feb 64. Only 8 months later. Ali couldn't have improved that much. He just didn't **** about in the 4th waiting for the 5th to carry out his prediction against Liston.
groove is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 02:28 PM   #10
apollack
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,527
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Ali always had a great chin, even against Cooper. Henry loaded up his best punch and rocketed it perfectly on his jaw. What happened? He got decked and got right up. Ali didn't need a better chin against Liston, he already had it. Ali had THE perfect style to give Liston trouble. Guys with footwork and speed gave Sonny trouble, that's the truth ruth. And Machen and Whitehurst did not have his talent, speed, footwork, blazing combos, clinching skill, etc., and they went the distance with Liston.
apollack is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 02:42 PM   #11
rekcutnevets
Black Sash
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: InYourMouth, NC
Posts: 6,552
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

I think Liston quits on his stool after 7 rounds.
rekcutnevets is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 05:20 PM   #12
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollack
Ali always had a great chin, even against Cooper. Henry loaded up his best punch and rocketed it perfectly on his jaw. What happened? He got decked and got right up. Ali didn't need a better chin against Liston, he already had it. Ali had THE perfect style to give Liston trouble. Guys with footwork and speed gave Sonny trouble, that's the truth ruth. And Machen and Whitehurst did not have his talent, speed, footwork, blazing combos, clinching skill, etc., and they went the distance with Liston.
It wasn't just that he got so badly stunned against Cooper in 1963, but was also nearly dropped early by a Doug Jones right, and got dumped by Sonny Banks in the first round, a year before that.

Yes, Ali did have the perfect style to give Liston trouble, but he may not yet have acquired the durability to stand up to whatever Sonny managed to deliver in the meantime. I had forgotton that so much time elapsed between the first Cooper fight and the first one with Liston. At that age, his rapidly maturing body may well have acquired the capacity to sustain the sort of hit he needed it to against Liston.

Remember, he only weighed about what a mature Patterson did when Banks scored his knockdown, and was three inches taller than Floyd. By the time he challenged for the title, Ali had filled out considerably. At that age, the human body readily adds muscle mass in response to strenuous physical activity, and young Clay certainly applied himself in training as never before, to have an opportunity to win the title. He also enjoyed the longest interval of his young career in preparing to face Liston, so this shouldn't be surprising.
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 05:46 PM   #13
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,659
vCash: 238
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Clay has the perfect style to beat a slow plodding slugger like Liston.
If we're talking about Clay in '64 here then i think he beats every version of Liston. A motivated, in top shape Liston would not quit but he'd take a beating nonetheless.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 05:58 PM   #14
achillesthegreat
FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 18,266
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Liston never wins. It's time to move on. A man can't do much more than face a man twice, beat him twice, stop him twice, fight him immediately.

Let's just say Liston pulled a quit job both times. That is still a flaw in his game.
achillesthegreat is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2007, 08:04 PM   #15
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston v.s Cassius Clay

Quote:
Originally Posted by groove
I've never heard of Ali being a sparring partner for Liston. You gotta provide some proof.
There's a pretty well-known photograph of the two of them in profile sparring together. I don't know if I can locate it in one of my old magazines, but I'm sure others on this board have seen it (as well as Clay with Johansson). It's a pretty well-known fact.

This shouldn't be surprising. Reigning champions employ sparring partners who eventually dethrone them routinely.
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013