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Old 12-05-2009, 08:37 PM   #106
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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If thats the case, how does that make him an overated trainer or prove that he didnt improve Lewis as a fighter over the past six years they won and defended the title together?
The title was basically taken away from him by Emanuel Steward exposing a technical flaw that Steward picked up on in Lewis, and thats a fact, he said it before, during, and after the fight what he had programmed Mcall to do.
The title was lost to Rahman by overconfidence and complacency like you said.
And likewise, Rahman's trainers took the title by exposing flaws that Lewis had that Steward had left uncorrected. Overconfidence/complacency is the reason the Steward-Lewis team had not bothered to correct those flaws prior to fighting Rahman, or at least develop a gamplan for succeeding in spite of them.
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Old 12-05-2009, 08:53 PM   #107
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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And likewise, Rahman's trainers took the title by exposing flaws that Lewis had that Steward had left uncorrected. Overconfidence/complacency is the reason the Steward-Lewis team had not bothered to correct those flaws prior to fighting Rahman, or at least develop a gamplan for succeeding in spite of them.
That still doesnt answer the question, but thats ok, this is a bit old. Like I said kudos to Rahman for taking the extra effort to take advantage at his shot at the title.
Rahman was not as bad as most make him out to be, and in the early part of his career training with Tommy Brooks, leading up to the first Tua fight, he was a good prospect. He always had his limitations, but Brooks had him in top shape and throwing a lot of punches and working good. That alone would have allowed him to make more noise than he did in the mid to late 90's. The guy only had 8 or 9 amatuer fights.
As far as giving credit to Rahmans trainer, its really hard for me. Adrian Davis in my opinion, is one of the worst trainers in professional boxing. Hes the same clown that came up with this briliant idea of training both Rahman in the rematch, and Joppy in his fight against Trinidad to hold both their hands straight out when their opponents came forward, but thats a whole different discussion.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:06 PM   #108
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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That still doesnt answer the question, but thats ok, this is a bit old.
What question do you want answered? Your original question was how Steward qualifies as a "yes man", and that's what his behavior entering the Rahman fight points to. As Unforgiven said, the only reason he wouldn't qualify as a yes man is if he was the one who actually fueled Lewis complacency behind the scenes, rather than simply shared in it.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:17 PM   #109
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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What question do you want answered? Your original question was how Steward qualifies as a "yes man", and that's what his behavior entering the Rahman fight points to. As Unforgiven said, the only reason he wouldn't qualify as a yes man is if he was the one who actually fueled Lewis complacency behind the scenes, rather than simply shared in it.
This question.
If thats the case, how does that make him an overated trainer or prove that he didnt improve Lewis as a fighter over the past six years they won and defended the title together?
Weve talked about this before, and youve stated many times you dont think Steward improved Lewis and that he was vastly overated as a trainer.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:34 PM   #110
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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This question.
If thats the case, how does that make him an overated trainer or prove that he didnt improve Lewis as a fighter over the past six years they won and defended the title together?
Weve talked about this before, and youve stated many times you dont think Steward improved Lewis and that he was vastly overated as a trainer.
Being a yes man alone would raise the question of being overrated. The whole point of a TRAINer is to TRAIN the fighter, not share in or even encourage his lack of preparation. Simply put, he didn't do his damn job.

Aside from that, I already addressed that particular question a number of times. Lewis was inconsistent with his boxing skills and technique under every trainer he worked with, and his loss to Rahman under Steward's watch was every bit (if not moreso) embarrassing as McCall. The notions of a "pre-Steward" and "post-Steward" Lewis are often inaccurate and highly over-mythicized.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:52 PM   #111
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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Being a yes man alone would raise the question of being overrated. The whole point of a TRAINer is to TRAIN the fighter, not share in or even encourage his lack of preparation. Simply put, he didn't do his damn job.

Aside from that, I already addressed that particular question a number of times. Lewis was inconsistent with his boxing skills and technique under every trainer he worked with, and his loss to Rahman under Steward's watch was every bit (if not moreso) embarrassing as McCall. The notions of a "pre-Steward" and "post-Steward" Lewis are often inaccurate and highly over-mythicized.
Well thats your opinion, but kind of unfounded based on the long reign and success they had together. That doesnt make him a yes man, and we've heard Steward tough with Lewis from the Mercer fight all the way to the Tyson fight when he was pounding on Lewis in the corner and yelling at him to get him to do what he wanted.
Lewis obviously improved technically, and Steward obviously has produced and perfected many more fighters than Pepe Correa, and I dont know how its over mythicized? Lewis was already a very good fighter with great ability, it just needed to be fine tuned and tweaked, and Correa wasnt getting that done.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:35 PM   #112
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

Great Trainer, and hype man.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:20 PM   #113
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

Dundee was also exceptional at guiding a fighter, plotting his career path, finding the right opponents at the right time to not only advance the fighter's progress into and up the rankings but also to teach him different things to prepare him for what he would face down the road. I'm not sure there has ever been anyone better at this.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:32 PM   #114
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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He had Willie Pastrano too from memory
And Ralph Dupas.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:45 PM   #115
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

Ya don't last as a top trainer for as long Angelo did, if you're just a yes man.

He trained me at the 5th St. Gym. Thought he was terrific, 'n inspiring.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:33 PM   #116
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

I wasn't around, so somebody please :

Did Dundee retire, or did demand for him just fade?
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:11 PM   #117
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

Lets put it this way both Ali and Leonard may have another significant loss on their records and those losses could have been career changers. Dundee had a ton of knowledge and made an impact on many fighters
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:25 AM   #118
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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I wasn't around, so somebody please :

Did Dundee retire, or did demand for him just fade?
I think he just became too old. He was already in his 70s when training Foreman in his comeback.

De La Hoya used him as an advisor for the Pacquiao fight, but Oscar could've had Futch, Arcel, Benton, Clancy, Dundee, and Steward all working for him at 100% to win that night and he still would've lost due to how physically shot and weight drained he was.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:11 AM   #119
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

I'd say a better motivator
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:44 AM   #120
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

a great cornerman. Emanuel Steward was a great trainer.
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