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Old 12-08-2009, 06:05 PM   #46
McGrain
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Default Re: Heavyweight with the highest workrate

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Dude, stop backtracking. I just referred to a post that said "IF" the punch stat record for the Manila fight was correct then that would mean Frazier threw more punches than Marciano in a fight. Obviously that's presumptions, we went over that.]

I'm just going to leave you to it chum. I'm not even reading the rest of that. You're making trouble where there is none. No idea what your problem is.
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Old 12-08-2009, 06:08 PM   #47
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Default Re: Heavyweight with the highest workrate

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I'm just going to leave you to it chum. I'm not even reading the rest of that. You're making trouble where there is none. No idea what your problem is.
Okay, but at least I can go forward admitting I'm accountable for what I say. You're just not making sense with that and I called you out on it. You're idea of debating with me is making trouble than fine.
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Old 12-08-2009, 06:11 PM   #48
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Default Re: Heavyweight with the highest workrate

All I said was that picking Marciano "by far" wasn't reasonable. Unforgiven, who originally said it, agreed with me. You read it and went absolutley mental.
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Old 12-08-2009, 06:35 PM   #49
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Default Re: Heavyweight with the highest workrate

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All I said was that picking Marciano "by far" wasn't reasonable. Unforgiven, who originally said it, agreed with me. You read it and went absolutley mental.
I'm sorry, I'm schizophrenic, but a passionate boxing fan.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:28 PM   #50
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Default Re: Heavyweight with the highest workrate

Jack Dempsey
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Old 12-09-2009, 01:34 PM   #51
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Default Re: Heavyweight with the highest workrate

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It all comes down to how we really define workrate. Frazier's was more dynamic, so I see the argument. McGrain, which I responded to was his implication that Frazier has thrown more punches due to being a record setter with Ali in Manilla. As if that makes Frazier probably having thrown much more punches, which is just an assumption that obviously he has backed down from.

Now, in terms of pace/pressure in bobbing and weaving and the speed of pressure a fighter combined with his punch output than I would lean toward Frazier. I guess it boils down to your work-rate. I don't neccessarily think Marciano was that much more busy early in the fights. Both weren't the fastest of starters, but even Joe got off and broke down Ellis in 5 and Foster in only 2 rounds. Marciano, on the other hand, was as sensational in round 15 as ever. That was his unending stamina. I have never seen Frazier throw over 100+ punches non-stop in rounds 10 and 15 like Marciano did against Charles. Frazier just slows down, and doesn't have that energy, snap, and power to keep throwing. So I won't agree with that middle to late senses. I could agree to overall if we combine the factors I mentioned earlier, but in terms of late stages of a fight I might learn toward Marciano because I feel his stamina is not marginally but noticeably superior. As a boxer historian said, "Marciano trained like a bare knuckled fighter. He could knock you out in the 20th round." Bummy even suggested that Marciano could've stopped FOTC Ali before the final bell. Now, maybe preposterous to some but I give him greater odds to do so then Frazier if they are at the same stages in the fight because Marciano never stopped and Frazier clearly was slowing down toward the end of his big fights, especially the ones against Ali even in his supposed "masterclass prime showing."

And you said he slowed down. By you can see furious middle weight pace toward his ending rounds against Moore and ****ell. Even ****ell being a poor performance, and Moore being a 32 year old Rocky. We can agree on workrate if we set the criteria straight, but I seriously doubt he had a "Higher punch-output." Marciano throw 100+ punches in round 15 against Charles and that wasn't just a fluke pour on to try KOing Charles. He did set a non-stop rate in early rounds when Charles was hurting.
He didn't throw 100 punches in every round against Charles because the Rock was getting hit with solid punches himself. Of course Frazier slowed down towards the end of the FOTC. The pace he sets is equal to the pace of a middleweight fighter. In fact, I don't even remember Hagler, Hearns, Duran or Leonard fighting with the same wicked consistent pace of speed as Frazier did in his prime years. This is exactly one of the reasons why Frazier chose to spar with the top middleweight and light heavyweight fighters Philly fighters.

Marciano's pace slowly increases as the fight goes on, but he's not as pressure fast as Frazier, and I'd argue that Frazier's workrate is higher based on the fact he set up more punches to the body and was a more distinct body puncher than Marciano. Marciano threw harder right hands and perhaps more power punches total over fifteen rounds than Frazier.

I also disagree with those who say Marciano would have KOed FOTC Ali before the 15 round duration or beat him up worse than Frazier did. Marciano probably hurts Ali just like Frazier did, perhaps earlier in the fight if he catches him. Again what's forgotten is the fact that Frazier's underrated foot and handspeed enabled him to catch Ali in the corners and on the ropes, where Marciano wouldn't catch him. He doesn't have enough speed to catch Ali repeatedly like Frazier did. The only way Marciano beats FOTC Ali is by making Ali stand and trade shots which he wouldn't do. Ali would use his legs the same way he fought Frazier, trying to keep a safe outside distance while landing quality shots.
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Old 12-09-2009, 03:25 PM   #52
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Default Re: Heavyweight with the highest workrate

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smokin Joe and the rock come to mind but Tua and Ibaebuchi hold the record for most punches thrown in a fight, Vitali Klitschko works hard in a fight out of todays fighters.
Or rather they hold the record for punches in a fight since they started counting.
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Old 12-09-2009, 03:33 PM   #53
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Default Re: Heavyweight with the highest workrate

Marciano worked harder than Vitali, only because he had to to make up for his deficiencies
though.

Vitali today can throw faster, hard, more accurate shots than Marciano and in far greater volume, without really trying. He is just a much more effiecient, technically sound fighter.

But in answer to the original question, Marciano is in with a good shout as one of the hardest working ever, as is Fraizer.
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Old 12-09-2009, 03:53 PM   #54
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Default Re: Heavyweight with the highest workrate

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
When did punch-stat count even come into existence?

Honestly, Marciano fought 15 rounds once and even then I doubt Frazier threw more punches than Marciano did against Charlies than Joe had in Manilla. In fact, I don't doubt that Frazier and Ali threw more punches, but Marciano threw more than Frazier I'd say. Charles was on the receiving end of a lot of punishment, but I don't think he winged nearly as many punches as Frazier's dance partner did in Ali.

So, this is some nice presumptuous logic from you McGrain.
Exactly. Ike/Tua had the record for fights scored by Compubox, which wasn't even developed until the mid 80s. Even than you have to consider that only Compubox's client base is included in that figure, which was once exclusively HBO but in recent times at least have branched out more.
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