Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-08-2009, 07:10 PM   #1
IntentionalButt
Nash Equilibrium Debunker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 122,984
vCash: 35250
Default High-level cat-and-mouse

Only examples where both cat and mouse are world-class, please (and where the above roles are clearly and unmistakably defined).

Date: 02/26/00

Stalker: Oscar De La Hoya 31-1-0...maintained a varied offense, brilliantly integrating body work to limit Coley's mobility in the later rounds. Dealt with the speed disadvantage by throwing in combination at multiple targets (low and high) and by matching Coley step for step, synchronizing the movement of his feet with Coley's an never allowing him to change pace or direction without the ring being instantly cut off.

Prey: Derrell Coley 34-1-2...put on as perfect a defensive display as one could be asked to against a prime DLH. Used the jab to great effect to preserve his safety zone, doubling it at a minimum and frequently flashing it in triplicate or even up to half a dozen times (!). Had Oscar hurt in the 4th round, which had to have been a ROTY candidate (though hopelessly outmatched in a cruel twist of fate against Barrera-Morales I, Rd 5).

Victor: The Cat (ODLH) by KO7

Aftermath: Coley would fight only 4 more times (in the span of eighteen months, following a two year layoff), all victories over low-level competition. He was effectively ruined as a fighter - Oscar ripped the heart right out of his chest. De La Hoya would go 7-5 over the next eight years, but against world-class opposition, and would never again engage in anything but a big-money headline event.

BORKED

BORKED

BORKED


Date: 07/26/28

Stalker: Tom Heeney 32-8-5...bravely pressed the action, stepping behind a jab (at times extending it out inert like a boom mic) with his upper body leaned back in the style of the day, bringing a cross to the fore anytime a pathway cleared to Tunney's chin. Attempted to maul and bang in the clinch at every opportunity. Took very few backward steps against the larger (but lighter, and less compact) champion.

Prey: Gene Tunney 65-1-1...waited patiently for the smaller man to shuffle into trajectory and punished him with hard counters (mostly 1-2s down the middle) and skipped back comfortably to minimize collateral damage, keeping a distance that favored him at all times. Easily controlled the occasional wrestling and pushed the challenger away at will, taking only neglible inside shots between his height and head movement.

Victor: The Mouse (Tunney) by TKO11.

Aftermath: Heeney, never stopped before, would go on to suffer 6 more such defeats (14 more overall) and winning only 5 more in as many years. Short of a pair of losses to Max Baer, he would never again be in a major bout, let alone within reach of the heavyweight title. Tunney, for his part, retired at 31 with Greb the only blemish (and hardly a blemish) on his terrific resume.

BORKED



Date: 02/25/64

Stalker: Sonny Liston 35-1-0...brought his usual destructive approach, coming off back-to-back dismissals of stylistically stymied mouse Floyd Patterson. His overall game looked no different in this title defense than in those direct antecedents - his speed, power, punch selection, and relentless aggression were all the same old Sonny. Every power punch he threw had consciousness-altering properties...if only they had found an embassy to liaison with Clay's brain. He did manage to spoon-feed a few jabs to the young upstart, and made a sincere effort to adjust to Clay's counters by feinting with the jab and dipping and weaving as he rushed in...it simply wasn't enough...

Prey: Cassius Clay 19-0...turned his chin to "roll through" with any close call, and otherwise making Liston miss outright with superior footwork and full use of the ring. He used his own jab to embarrass Sonny, in an almost mocking and fraternal manner, casually reaching out rather than snapping the punch, and physically pushing Liston's head back with his left glove. When Liston would come near Clay would score on him, often more than once, never with anything sensational but almost always cleanly.

Victor: The Mouse (Clay) by RTD7

Aftermath: Liston would go 15-2 over the next six years, never climbing back to the top of the mountain after losing an immediate rematch to Clay by first-round knockout. For his part, Clay would build upon these wins with a stellar career (despite losing nearly four peak years in involuntary exile) to become recognized as one of the top three boxers, if not the greatest, in the history of the division during one of its best eras.

BORKED

BORKED



Date: 01/25/03

Stalker: Ricardo Mayorga 23-3-1...the wild man, and unlike his opponent, the antithesis of a good athletic role model, appeared in great shape and showed poise in his resolution to drag the Olympian into an exchange - attacking in short bursts before beating a hasty retreat from the tentative counterpuncher. His looping power punches always came from two directions at a time, close behind one another to keep the slicker boxer from settling into a rhythym. What counters did come his way, the naturally shorter man was able to duck under with relative ease, resurfacing in a perfect infighting position and forcing Forrest to withdraw.

Prey: Vernon Forrest 35-0...tried to apply his boxing fundamentals in what ought to have seemed an easy enough defense, coming off his pair of victories over his top-pound-for-pound foil Shane Mosley. After suffering a flash knockdown at the end of the first round, he attempted to turn the tables by meeting Mayorga in the center of the ring and pushing him back with jabs and right hands. When Mayorga seemed content to box with him, Vernon grew confident - particularly in his 1-2. Ultimately this would be his undoing as Mayorga began to punch with him, and get the far better when they traded with his naturally superior strength and physicality.

Victor: The Cat (Mayorga) by TKO3

Aftermath: In the six years following, before his tragic death, Forrest would go 6-2, including a decision loss to Mayorga in an immediate rematch; and none of his subsequent wins would carry the same luster as his defining, pre-Mayorga moments of triumph over Sugar Shane Mosley. Mayorga, having upset two large favorites in a row, each twice consecutively, began an unlikely rise to the top of the sport, going only 4-4 over five and a half years (before shifting his career focus to the sport of Mixed Martial Arts) but losing to some of the absolute elite, and netting some nice paydays for both himself and promoter Don King.

BORKED

BORKED


All tied up so far. Feel free to add to the list.

Please refrain from mentioning anything like Froch-Dirrell ...whatever your personal estimation of their individual value as fighters, neither adopted their role at a highly effective level on that night.
IntentionalButt is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-08-2009, 08:02 PM   #2
Russell
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,532
vCash: 118
Default Re: High-level cat-and-mouse

Great stuff Butt, seriously. Kudos on something original on here, its needed at this point and time.
Russell is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2009, 08:13 PM   #3
WhataRock
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 11,630
vCash: 166
Default Re: High-level cat-and-mouse

Duran-Lampkin.

Ray was a good fighter...very solid amatuer and well schooled.

He actually made Roberto look quite sloppy in the early stages of their fight..and though I havent watched it in a while I remember having it pretty close after 8 rounds.

Eventually though the cat wore down the mouse. By chasing and mauling it incessantly.

Seeing Ray slumped in the corner for the last few rounds of that fight stick in my mind vividly.

Aftermath: Ray went to hospital after the fight and was never the same. Retiring not long after.

A lot of people like to put rubbish on fighters who cant come back from a loss like that. But Ray was a fighter of proven quality and was just about the no1 contender in the division at the time. He left it all in the ring that night, he came down to Panama to beat one the best lightweights of all time and you have to give him credit for that.
WhataRock is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2009, 08:53 PM   #4
IntentionalButt
Nash Equilibrium Debunker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 122,984
vCash: 35250
Default Re: High-level cat-and-mouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhataRock View Post
Duran-Lampkin.

Ray was a good fighter...very solid amatuer and well schooled.

He actually made Roberto look quite sloppy in the early stages of their fight..and though I havent watched it in a while I remember having it pretty close after 8 rounds.

Eventually though the cat wore down the mouse. By chasing and mauling it incessantly.

Seeing Ray slumped in the corner for the last few rounds of that fight stick in my mind vividly.

Aftermath: Ray went to hospital after the fight and was never the same. Retiring not long after.

A lot of people like to put rubbish on fighters who cant come back from a loss like that. But Ray was a fighter of proven quality and was just about the no1 contender in the division at the time. He left it all in the ring that night, he came down to Panama to beat one the best lightweights of all time and you have to give him credit for that.
BORKED
BORKED
BORKED
BORKED
BORKED


Good call, WR.

We have a nice mix going here; more modern examples of victorious mice seem to be underrepresented. Anybody have anything maybe a bit more off the beaten path than, say, Mayweather-Gatti?

More contributions of both sides of the boxer/mover vs. stalker/puncher equation having their day in high-level contests, from all eras, are welcomed.
IntentionalButt is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 07:08 PM   #5
IntentionalButt
Nash Equilibrium Debunker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 122,984
vCash: 35250
Default Re: High-level cat-and-mouse

This one is near and dear to my heart...perhaps the epitomic cat and mouse struggle.

Date: 07/18/87

Stalker: Mike McCallum 31-0...never faltered in his commitment to pure boxing behind the jab on the outside, never showing signs of panic despite being consistently beaten to the punch early and often. Slow and steady, he kept himself in the fight by remaining within himself, faithful that a spot to time Curry would present itself before the final bell...

Prey: Donald Curry 27-1...seized upon any slight telegraphing betrayal of motion to be first, confounding a very good boxer in McCallum with his speed and reflexes...and even power, despite being seen as the (slightly) less brutal puncher in the ring. He had Mike hurt in round 2, and instead of jumping on him wildly continued to ply his technician's craft, seemingly always two steps ahead of Mike right up until the final fateful punch...

Victor: The Cat (McCallum)

Aftermath: Both would remain in the game for another decade, with mixed results. Mike would go 17-5-1 and Donald 7-4. Due its almost mythical highlight-reel status, and of course the pedigree of the victim, the KO victory is remembered as one of the greatest in McCallum's career. It should be noted, however, that the cat on this occasion very nearly went hungry, and but for a simple mistake - a momentary lapse in awareness - this may well have resulted in a lopsided decision or even late stoppage win for the mouse...whose career and mystique would never quite be arighted to previous stature (despite having lost once already)...

BORKED
BORKED
BORKED


Date: 04/14/07

The Stalker: Jorge Arce 46-3-1...fought as best he knew how, and fought with unwavering conviction and increasing desperation. He did manage to land the occasional punch - sometimes even two or three at once, though never with full torque due to their lunging nature - due in equal measure to his own relentless dedication to volume punching and Mijares' frequent moments of defensive laziness and liability (keeping his hands low while moving straight back at times).

The Prey: Cristian Mijares 30-3-2...in another counterpunching clinic, discouraged Arce from utilizing his familiar and predictable tactics of wading in with bunches of punches from a variety of angles. Using his length, agility, and a proficiency for catching and deflecting shots with his forearms, Mijares was able to sustain very little damage while making Arce pay for every transgression. By the second half this mouse had turned the tables and begun to stalk the cat, emboldened to step into Arce's route of attack to perform quick and surgical work before decelerating and allowing Arce a chance to act on his instinct, proudly pressing forth to return fire only to have more of the same inflicted on him by Mijares from the backfoot.

Victor: The Mouse (Mijares) by UD12

Aftermath: In the nearly three years since, Jorge has gone 6-2, his wins of unspectacular merit and both lossses in nearly as dominant fashion as this one; and Mijares 6-3 including five WBC title defenses before a skid of three defeats - one at the hands of Darchinyan, who also dealt Arce one of his beatings, and two close and controversial decisions to Nehomar Cermeno. Some would point to Mijares' subsquent shortcomings after a meteoric rise in the rankings as evidence that this version of Arce was already shot (also questioning the quality of the super flyweight contenders he dominated en route to his rough patch). The other theory is that this fight, moreso than any of the wars preceding it, though certainly in conjunction with them - in fact ruined Arce and made of him a shot fighter both physically and mentally.

BORKED
BORKED
BORKED
BORKED
BORKED


Date: 08/20/52

Stalker: Carmen Basilio 28-9-4...presented a willing but undeterred target, attempted in the later rounds to make minor adjustments by incorporating a full body lean and an immediate clinch into his pecking manner of attack to besiege the far less hittable Graham. There was power and determination here, but all the accuracy of an arquebus.

Prey: Billy Graham 97-8-8...ambushed Basilio with his pike-like jab, sometimes gaining ground with it singularly, and occasionally using it to set up combinations that backed Basilio up even further and kept him thinking longer and harder. During Basilio's go-for-broke moments charging in, Graham would simply bend at the waist as low as legally allowed and collapse into his foe, unafraid of letting his hands go while held or holding and knowing Basilio would be most dangerous landing a wide punch on a high and immobile target on the way in.

Victor: The Mouse (Graham) by UD10

Aftermath: The two would meet twice more, the very next year - Basilio handily winning the rematch and forcing a rubber, in which they drew to cap off their trilogy. All told, the Onion Farmer from upstate NY would go 28-6-3, splitting a pair with Sugar Ray Robinson and losing one thriller after another to Gene Fullmer in the twilight of an all time great career that would see him involved in eleven world title bouts. Graham would suffer a role reversal, getting outmoused at the hands of Kid Gavilan in his subsequent title shot...he would also go one-up with Joey Giardello to for a record of 4-7-1 after this, his last best night.

BORKED



We are once again tied up, with the felines and rodents at 4 wins apiece.
IntentionalButt is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 07:30 PM   #6
Russell
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,532
vCash: 118
Default Re: High-level cat-and-mouse

The very best threads on this forum need to be archived on a special side board, and this thread needs to be among the first to get in.
Russell is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013